OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Thanks guys. Practice is tonight so will try spend a while counter hitting and getting that rhythm. Will post some footage.

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Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm

While I agree with some of this, I don't know whether it is the beat as much as the consistency and the muscle memory as well as the experience of seeing you own ball come back over and over. The overall advice is good.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Your practice partner can learn to block your loops if you make an effort to control them. I have seen a guy whose mother doesn't play table tennis have his mother block his loops in order to help him get a decent loop. I have seen USATT 2700+ players loop to beginner kids and the kids put the ball on the table. I have beginner students block my loops all the time.

I have learned and taught many people who think they have special loops that the real reason a loop is good as you get better isn't just because of the ball itself, but the ability to put it at precise points on the table that the opponent cannot get to or has to move awkwardly to. I do this by blocking their best practice loops until they get tired of using power to try to overwhelm me. With sufficient exposure, you will be able to block high level loops in practice warm ups (in matches, you have to have good footwork to block well). It's the exposure that's the key and some technique at that level which you can learn with the exposure.

Part of what is happening is that you are looping too hard and too wildly. If you focus on looping with control, and keeping a steady pace, with the idea of extending the rally and letting your practice partner get used to your loop and blocking it, you will actually develop a good training partner while developing a decent loop and as your controlled loop gets better, his controlled block will get better. Even I would probably have issues blocking the kinds of loops you are trying to use to practice because your technique isn't trying to be consistent and the power creates wild variation in quality.

The same for the counterhit drill - the main thing that the counterhit drill will likely help with when it comes to your practice tempo is that it will slow you down because it is hard to hit the ball hard without spin and place it consistently on the table without building proper technique. But if you decide that you want to smack the ball as hard as you are currently looping, then all bets are off.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Thanks NL, makes sense.

Did some counterhitting tonight with another practice partner who is pretty much same level as me but different styles. Possibly 1000-1100 US give or take.

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Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm

Just for interest. Here is my partner doing the same thing.



Comments also welcome if you'd like.

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Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm

That's actually more of a weak loop than a true counterhit (which is what I expected to happen), but is sufficient for what you are trying to do. But if you topspinned at that pace and brushed more for spin, your loop would get much better faster. I prefer that video to anything that you were doing before.

To put it in context, this was Brett's favorite video when I was rebuilding my loop. I link to the specific point in the video so you can see the tempo - he wasn't impressed by all my other attempts - it was the pace and proper form of this one that he liked the most.

https://youtu.be/vGaENX_--bY?t=267

There is too much upward motion in your counterhit and the contact is not flat enough. Here was my counterhit when I first tried to rebuild it. But like I said, if the only goal of this was to get you to slow down, then the above video has already done that. Loop and practice at that tempo and power level first. It's the biggest mistake adults make in general - trying to hit/loop with power too quickly. It messes up their form and makes it harder for them to integrate other critical things (like taking the time to observe the opponent or read the spin) into their game.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

and last video for now......

We just played points for a while but didn't keep score. I didn't try do anything here, I just played. We were trying to attack a bit more when the ball was long. This is a few minutes of points with my forehand.

Note also at 30 seconds there is a point where my mate hits a winner with flat shot. Our aim for him is to finish higher.

At 1:06 there is an example of his loop, which is quite effective.

As usual would love to hear comments.

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Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm

Honestly, your forehand is already pretty good as an amateur. All you need to do is to stop practicing as if you're trying to be Hercules and build the spin and speed over time with relaxed harmonized effort. Then you will be able to have the body parts working together most efficiently. You will also be able to stop dropping your arm reflexively and start looping topspin (and not just backspin) better.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

These comments are regarding your counterhitting videos.

1) You need to spread your feet wider, bend your knees, get lower to the table. You should also be on the balls of your feet and leaning slightly forward. It's ok for your heels to touch the floor but just barely. Look at Jeff's form at the 3:16 mark. https://youtu.be/vnaY6ltLY-g?t=3m16s

2) You're turning and dropping your left shoulder too much. Some of it is the camera angle but notice that your left shoulder pretty much disappears from view as you're making your stroke.
Look at Jeff's form at the 7s mark. He only turns his shoulder slightly and doesn't drop his shoulder. https://youtu.be/vnaY6ltLY-g?t=7s

3) It appears that only one of you is performing the counterhit while the other is blocking. Try to do the drill with both of you counterhitting.

4) For each stroke, your starting position should have your forearm roughly parallel to the table. Your elbow should be tucked in and your upper arm and forearm should roughly form a 90 deg angle. This applies more to your training partner.

5) As you swing forward and up, it will help if you try to make contact around the top of the bounce. Making contact at different points in the ball's trajectory for each stroke causes you to put slightly different spin on the ball and could be one of the reasons why your partner is not able to return the ball to the same location consistently. By that, I mean within a 1-2 foot diameter.

6) One thing you can do to improve your placement is to place a towel covering the portion of the table where you don't want the ball to land.

7) As you become more proficient at the counterhit, try increasing the pace. Try to find a video of pro players doing their 2 minute pregame warm-up and listen to the beat/rhythm. You want to develop that kind of rhythm and pace.

Thank both for your time. I'll perhaps try make small steps.

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Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm

[edit]the below refers to your loop, not your counterhit

definite improvement Cobalt. your contact is much better than some of your earlier videos

unfortunately, there's still quite a lot you can work on. I don't mean that negatively - all of us can continuously improve our loops, me especially - but I mean it in the sense that there's loads you could think about, which will only lead you to frustration

if you can.. perhaps one at a time, or if you think you can manage all three in one go, these are the things I'd look at:

• your weight transfer isn't quite right. you move your body a lot, and you move your shoulders/arms... but you never pulse for power. you turn your body... but only for the sake of turning your body. however, I appreciate that "weight transfer" means very, very little until you're actually doing it correctly... so, concentrate on planting your right foot. if you keep your right foot planted, and still turn your body, you're going to draw on the power of your legs much better and hopefully it'll help you to realise where you can get your power from. as others have said, bending your knees and widening your stance will also help greatly with this
• your finishing position. a lot of the time at the moment you're finishing to the left of your head - you should always be aiming to finish at your eyebrow (left or right, depending on personal preference - but at least one of them!). you'll find this is more accurate, more consistent and, if you're as vain as me, more aesthetically pleasing
• your grip. I don't know if anyone has spoken to you about this but your first finger is far too vertical for my tastes. I think this will somewhat affect your contact on the ball. it'll feel really strange to begin with, but give your grip a go with a more horizontal first finger

you can see some of my good and bad habits in this video - and some slow motion bits which are useful for analysis.


when I play a really good loop, you'll see my knees are bent and I finish at my eyebrow. a lot of the time when I net the ball, I finish far to the right of my head - I'm too tense and I'm now allowing my stroke to come through the ball. I find use of the knees absolutely vital because I'm quite a distance away from the table and I'm using an over-the-table rubber (H3) in that video. without proper use of the legs, and proper "pulsing" rotation of the body, I just can't make that shot effective - it either doesn't make it past the net or it doesn't have enough spin/speed to bother any remotely talented opponents

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Thanks Dunc, very helpful information there. Getting the power is something I'm looking for. A played golf for many years and understand the importance of rotation vs purely fast arms in a swing. In golf I was hitting long enough but in table tennis sometimes I feel that I can't get the power out and when I try I'm all arms and legs.

Overall I'm happy with the way things are going and far improved from 2 years ago. I'm also surprised that no-one has mentioned grip before too. Getting lower is something I've recognised but as you say, at times there are too many things to think about and so you end up on really focussing on anything in particular.

I'll check out the finish position too. Thanks.

Edit: Yep, just seen the finish and foot lifting. Very interesting, thanks for pointing them out. In relation to the finish position, I tend to finish with the full back of the back pointing at the camera. Not good.

To be honest I was starting to feel a bit despondent (only a little) as I felt I didn't really know what to work on next or how I was going to improve. The grounds I've made in the last 2 years I feel have been significant and the flaws I had were massively obvious to me once on camera. Now I guess I'm in a position where the major flaws are reduced so its easier to point out the small things. From here I think I'll come up with a list of half a dozen things to work on and just do each of them one week at a time.

Merry Christmas all.

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Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm

Yeah, the grip is not good, but I think he likes to switch between backhand and forehand. IMO, at this point, it really depends on how much change Cobalt wants to make. But slowing down is a good thing. Cobalt still thinks that playing faster is about hitting the ball harder, and not about developing the shots that give you time to get to the ball and play strokes that put opponents in trouble at your chosen pace. Once he realizes that by slowing down and developing a consistent stroke, he will be able to play faster and more unconsciously, the light bulb will go off. Trying to rip the ball just takes so much energy that you can't get good at anything else at the lower levels.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I thought you were aware of the grip and it was a conscious decision.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Was aware of the grip but just had it in the too hard basket rather than deciding not to change. Generally I start roughly ok and when on backhand its ok but its when I hit a couple of forehand, next thing I know my finger is up the back and I don't know how it got there.

I do think a consequence is that it tends to lock in my wrist a bit and also push the bat forward. I think I'll give it a go at changing. Can't hurt to try. I'll add it to the list.

_________________
Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm