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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2016, 12:04 
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It's true you really look like you had a train to catch. Even in the warmup when you walk towards the camera your expression is negative, not your usual excited to play face.

You missed serves in each set, three in the first. This kid is beatable for you, IMO, not like PtP, but not if you give him free points.

I'm crap at seeing tactics, the only thing I noticed was you played so much to the BH. I get that his FH is much stronger, but he hardly ever had to move, sometimes three shots in a row right to him on the BH side. Maybe you could try to pull him over and then go behind him.

I love the idea of posting the first set and having us coach at the break, then see what happened. Thanks for doing this thread.


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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2016, 15:14 
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NL the 2nd kid is clearly superior to the first. I can see you feel pressured by him, hence the rush and fumbles you had. This one looks deserving of a 2250 rating. What is his rating? As others have said you need to pace yourself in a match like this. I know it can be hard, as the mind races looking for the next solution to try. Its paradoxical!

Btw, are these matches just practice friendlies, or are they part of some league or competition. Im wondering where the pressure exertion comes from and whether its just personal rivalry, or more?

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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2016, 15:21 
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These are all great comments. Thank you all.

I beat PtP 11-9 in the 5th today. Fluke win, but I will take it and I was happy with how I played for the most part.

To put this match with BJ in context, I went for a league on Tuesday without having played competitively on almost a month (leagues or tournaments and only 4 practice matches vs 2000+, all in the last week as I have been resting my shoulder) and I was really asleep because of interminable rain and a 1+ hour drive. Then I played a guy who I usually match up well with and lost 3 straight with hardly a fight (MW - video on my channel). Then I played another guy (CL) whose number I have had recently and won 3-2 in the 5th, which to me as an indication that I didn't have it. Then I played this kid and yes, I just wondered WTF I was missing so much. So I put away my EL-P paddle (which went mysteriously missing as well, driving me into more anger) and picked up my T05 paddle. Then I played the last two matches well (lost 2-3 to ML, a 2200 power looper and beat RS 3-0, a 2000 level defender/chopper).

For this particular kid, the issue in part is that I am trying to play a spin game against him. I technically do better against kids like him when I play my hitting game, but my desire to evolve into a counterlooper has kept me from doing this for a year and a half now. I am almost comfortable enough to go back to an all round hitting and looping game, so we will see. He backs off the table and feeds off the spin so I can cut that out with flat hits and blocks.

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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2016, 15:27 
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RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
NL the 2nd kid is clearly superior to the first. I can see you feel pressured by him, hence the rush and fumbles you had. This one looks deserving of a 2250 rating. What is his rating? As others have said you need to pace yourself in a match like this. I know it can be hard, as the mind races looking for the next solution to try. Its paradoxical!

Btw, are these matches just practice friendlies, or are they part of some league or competition. Im wondering where the pressure exertion comes from and whether its just personal rivalry, or more?


Again, the other kid is 13, this kid is 17. The other kid beat this kid 3-0 (3,6,4) on Sunday this week. It's partly a style issue but this kid gets off the fact that he can back up and take the ball late against me when I am counterspinning. But I think you will see what happens when I play him flat which is what I will do the next time.

The first kid is in my club and I have played him since he was 9. He is as much a part of my growth as anyone else as having good players in my club helps my level. The second kid is at the closest club to mine and I used to go there often for the league but I haven't been healthy enough for the past month.

I am making more of the rivalries than I really feel just to entertain readers of the thread a little. These are both players who train far more than I do and have better health and movement. But I want people who complain about strategic issues in their matches to have a chance to coach me and learn the kinds of things they can look for when thinking about matches like this.

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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2016, 15:31 
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birchamboi wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
Here is another bad junior matchup for me.

Where is the fire? You were so keen to get out of there it was over in nine minutes including warm up.

Not only that but you sprint through each point. I can understand why the kid is happy with the pace: he's winning! But I don't understand why you don't make any attempt to slow the pace of the match.

I suspect the average length of time it takes for you to serve is less than a second. At the start of the match, you serve three times in less than seventeen seconds (and that includes your opponent have to chase and pick up the ball, a net and then a serve into the net). Another case in point is 7:47-8:51. At 7:47 you haven't even got the ball and yet at 8:51 it's over because you've served off the table!

I've noticed this when you've posted serving drills. You just go one after another with not even a break. There's no pause, and you don't seem to bother to look at the ball before you throw it up.

I seem to remember reading something about eye-tracking stuff and the need to pause and focus clearly before beginning the shot. I'm sorry for the really long post, but it just jumps out at me how you appear to rush.


Great point. Part of it is that until a month or two ago, even as I practiced serves, I never really knew what to do with them outside my range of expected responses and against him, my serve quality has been too low in the past to get what I want. I think that now that my serve technique has really improved and is getting closer to uncapped, my attitude and approach to serve practice will change quite a bit. I didn't serve him long and fast for example, and I had too many of my serves stay too short. But I now have good enough serves to fix this.

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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2016, 15:34 
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BRS wrote:
It's true you really look like you had a train to catch. Even in the warmup when you walk towards the camera your expression is negative, not your usual excited to play face.

You missed serves in each set, three in the first. This kid is beatable for you, IMO, not like PtP, but not if you give him free points.

I'm crap at seeing tactics, the only thing I noticed was you played so much to the BH. I get that his FH is much stronger, but he hardly ever had to move, sometimes three shots in a row right to him on the BH side. Maybe you could try to pull him over and then go behind him.

I love the idea of posting the first set and having us coach at the break, then see what happened. Thanks for doing this thread.


Ahhh.... I need to remember this when someone is playing fast and I am wondering why. I had the same issue playing MD as well - the problem is that I practice consistency so much that I often play the ball to keep the rally going as opposed to playing to win the point. So I am often playing the ball at people rather than away from them. I am introducing target practice into my routine so I think you will see some major changes in my ball location over the next month.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 06:18 
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NextLevel wrote:

For this particular kid, the issue in part is that I am trying to play a spin game against him. I technically do better against kids like him when I play my hitting game, but my desire to evolve into a counterlooper has kept me from doing this for a year and a half now. I am almost comfortable enough to go back to an all round hitting and looping game, so we will see. He backs off the table and feeds off the spin so I can cut that out with flat hits and blocks.


To be perfectly honest, I've never totally understood why you have this desire to develop a counterlooping game. If I were in your position and I had limited mobility, my entire game would revolve around strong serves and third ball attacks, consistent drop shots against short backspin serves, a strong ability to read spin and place my receive to difficult areas, etc. Virtually everything about my game would center around the idea of preventing my opponent from attacking strongly and always giving me the opportunity to attack first. Counterlooping, by it's very nature, implies that you are at least content with allowing your opponent to attack first. And regardless of how good you become at reading the game, I think the idea that you are going to allow 2200-2300 loopers to open up against you consistently and still win to be very unlikely.

So in general I think you need to:

1. Continue to focus on your service game. When you play a match, every time you go to serve you try to hit the best serve of your entire life.

2. Don't push long everytime someone gives you a shot backspin oriented serve. Try to develop your dropshot, then step back out and try to play one of your wicked loops versus backspin. At the very least a dropshot will test your opponent's in and out footwork.

3. Try to add some creativity to your blocking game when all else fails and you cannot end the point quickly. Do you have a chop block, a sidespin block?


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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 07:10 
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Ringer84 wrote:
NextLevel wrote:

For this particular kid, the issue in part is that I am trying to play a spin game against him. I technically do better against kids like him when I play my hitting game, but my desire to evolve into a counterlooper has kept me from doing this for a year and a half now. I am almost comfortable enough to go back to an all round hitting and looping game, so we will see. He backs off the table and feeds off the spin so I can cut that out with flat hits and blocks.


To be perfectly honest, I've never totally understood why you have this desire to develop a counterlooping game. If I were in your position and I had limited mobility, my entire game would revolve around strong serves and third ball attacks, consistent drop shots against short backspin serves, a strong ability to read spin and place my receive to difficult areas, etc. Virtually everything about my game would center around the idea of preventing my opponent from attacking strongly and always giving me the opportunity to attack first. Counterlooping, by it's very nature, implies that you are at least content with allowing your opponent to attack first. And regardless of how good you become at reading the game, I think the idea that you are going to allow 2200-2300 loopers to open up against you consistently and still win to be very unlikely.

So in general I think you need to:

1. Continue to focus on your service game. When you play a match, every time you go to serve you try to hit the best serve of your entire life.

2. Don't push long everytime someone gives you a shot backspin oriented serve. Try to develop your dropshot, then step back out and try to play one of your wicked loops versus backspin. At the very least a dropshot will test your opponent's in and out footwork.

3. Try to add some creativity to your blocking game when all else fails and you cannot end the point quickly. Do you have a chop block, a sidespin block?


I already do just about everything you listed, the only issue being the quality of the shots so no sh*t, Sherlock. What you have written is like saying "oh, he wants to be a blocker, so he is only going to practice blocking". No matter how good you are at countering, you still want to be able to reduce the quality of your opponent's loops.

Countering loops close to the table with blocks and hits is a classic of playing table tennis. Countering loops with loops close to the table is a bit more difficult and unique and is a way to play because these larger balls enable it. I want to be unique. Maybe I should really only write that.

Moreover, pushing long is good when you are a counterer and can get the ball deep. Pushing short often results in the ball going half long and this is where the trouble starts. When you have spin read issues like myself, it is easier to push long or flick long but with decent placement and let the opponent open as long as the ball is deep enough and the opponent's placement options are limited. The bottom line is that I Want to get to a point where I can be not so afraid to let my opponent open against a decent return. Even now, I struggle when my opponents open vs good returns I make. That is what I Want to fix.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 07:38 
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Make better returns.


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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 07:49 
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BRS wrote:
Make better returns.


Do better serves. On a more serious note, I get it. These kids make me look like an idiot. I posted these matches for a reason though. I think I am now very close to consistent at the table countering. I have figured out the missing ingredient and will use it to death. I think if my health stays good, strong things will happen over the next few months. Brett's serve reading app can't hurt either.

I read spin at a level way below my playing level. It's one of those things I have no solution for. I can't even tell a ball has topspin before I hit it.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 08:03 
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NextLevel wrote:
.

Moreover, pushing long is good when you are a counterer and can get the ball deep. Pushing short often results in the ball going half long and this is where the trouble starts. When you have spin read issues like myself, it is easier to push long or flick long but with decent placement and let the opponent open as long as the ball is deep enough and the opponent's placement options are limited. The bottom line is that I Want to get to a point where I can be not so afraid to let my opponent open against a decent return. Even now, I struggle when my opponents open vs good returns I make. That is what I Want to fix.


Okay, keep sending all of your receives long and let 2200-2300 players fire bombs at you. Honestly, I don't give a ****.


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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 08:28 
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Ringer84 wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
.

Moreover, pushing long is good when you are a counterer and can get the ball deep. Pushing short often results in the ball going half long and this is where the trouble starts. When you have spin read issues like myself, it is easier to push long or flick long but with decent placement and let the opponent open as long as the ball is deep enough and the opponent's placement options are limited. The bottom line is that I Want to get to a point where I can be not so afraid to let my opponent open against a decent return. Even now, I struggle when my opponents open vs good returns I make. That is what I Want to fix.


Okay, keep sending all of your receives long and let 2200-2300 players fire bombs at you. Honestly, I don't give a ****.


Pushing deep doesn't get bombs fired at you. Pushing half long does. If you watch my matches, no one kills my deep pushes. They kill the ones that are intended to be short but go long.

I stress this so that you don't make the mistake many people make and think pushing deep is bad. Whether you give a sh*t or not.


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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 10:21 
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Of course nobody is going to tee off on your deep, heavy pushes. But that's not the point. The point is that you always push deep and everybody and their grandma knows it's coming. This means that you are constantly allowing the opponent to play the first topspin, which forces you into either a blocking/countering game or a counterlooping game. Your counterloop is not particularly accurate (and understandably probably never will be due to your knee issues) and your blocking game is not creative enough nor strong enough to block down players in the 2200-2300 range. And if your short receives are drifting half-long, then that means you're not doing it right. Anyone with a brain can see that your loops are your strong point and that you should be initiating the first attack as early and often as possible. And that requires you developing some touch and a short game.

I find it pretty hilarious that you post two videos of you getting throttled by higher level players. Then you come on here and ask for advice on "Winning Matches" and when you receive it you proceed to lecture everyone on table tennis strategy. LOL.


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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 11:47 
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Ringer84 wrote:
Of course nobody is going to tee off on your deep, heavy pushes. But that's not the point. The point is that you always push deep and everybody and their grandma knows it's coming. This means that you are constantly allowing the opponent to play the first topspin, which forces you into either a blocking/countering game or a counterlooping game. Your counterloop is not particularly accurate (and understandably probably never will be due to your knee issues) and your blocking game is not creative enough nor strong enough to block down players in the 2200-2300 range. And if your short receives are drifting half-long, then that means you're not doing it right. Anyone with a brain can see that your loops are your strong point and that you should be initiating the first attack as early and often as possible. And that requires you developing some touch and a short game.

I find it pretty hilarious that you post two videos of you getting throttled by higher level players. Then you come on here and ask for advice on "Winning Matches" and when you receive it you proceed to lecture everyone on table tennis strategy. LOL.


Trolling players higher rated than you are is a difficult art, Ringer, and for that reason, I usually don't do it.

That said, stick around and you might see the matches.alittle differently over time. I really do not think you understand what you are watching.

In general, when coaching match, the point is to accept the tools of the player as given. Suggesting wholesale changes to my game is not going to win matches, it is going to send me back to the training hall. Subtle changes can win matches. And. i picked players who I can give competitive matchss even if they are higher ares tHan I am.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 15:29 
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Keeping it friendly guys....oh and NL, with your bad knees I suggest you change to long pips :P :lol:

Ok, that was something of a joke, but in all seriousness, if your knees are really that bad then they will only get worse over time and a good pip game (which will allow good short drops) would support you well into the future. Looping and counter looping wont keep you playing in the mid to late 60's.

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