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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 08:38 
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birchamboi wrote:
Can someone please help me understand the point of this thread?

I thought NextLevel was asking for help, but the more I read the thread the less this seems to be the case. Now it seems as if NextLevel is the coach and is just trying to see if we're clever enough to agree with his opinions. I don't get it.


I created the thread in response to a particular poster who was lookikg dor something specific.

The thread is not just for me and my matches and as the person who played the ones I posted, I am allowed to comment on them - I was fairly annoyed by the prior match when I played it and I find it interesting that people can see why and I found wilkinru's comments about the reckless nature of the play of my opponent comforting. I largely agree with most of the insights that have been posted so far.

Do you have any to share? Maybe a match you would like to post? Or would you like to comment on my matches? Or those of BRS?

I won't be posting anything else until my next league or tournament event.

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 08:44 
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wilkinru wrote:
The advice for winning? Nope. That's how I went with it - you wanted to win.

Game 2 was just so ugly - you should post that on the "guess the rating" thread :) I'd have come out with 1200!

So winning table tennis matches has two different ways of thinking about it for me:
1. Winning with the current situation in the match itself right then. One can do timeouts and discuss serving patterns, etc. Game time adjustments.
2. Working on specific skills to help in the winning of points. Improve this stroke, work on moving to one side, fixing errors or even just a mindset change. These of course are done after the match.

So it seems this thread is all about #1 - in game adjustments given the current situation.

I've been coaching my friend in games at his tennis (and table tennis) matches for years, it took him a while to really believe in executing what I was saying. In one TT match a few years ago he had just won a close game like 14-12 and then I gave him 1 little piece of advice: go to the forehand with everything. He lost only 2 points over the final 2 games. That's about as dramatic of a change one can get. He was simply shocked and doesn't even question my advice anymore - just tries to execute.

I think my experience/knowledge dies out at around 5.0 tennis rating and ~1900 in TT. I hope my TT knowledge will grow over time as I seem to have a strong desire to coach.


It's largely about #1, but you are free to discuss #2 as well as long as you aren't saying that is what you would tell someone who need to win that match.

It will naturally grow - my guess is that over time, as people bring in more matches, we will see more things. I really felt like a POS playing that match and at 2-0, 10-4, I started trying to attack. At 10-9, I just said, what the heck, you have tried attacking and it didn't work, so just win the match before you get stuck in a dog fight. The man also had his #1 fan clapping in the crowd for him and it was beginning to echo for me.

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 09:18 
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Birchamboi,

NL started the thread, but it's open and different people can use it for different things.

Did you watch my match? I posted a loss to a guy almost 200 points below me. Not a tournament, but I'll post those the next time I go to one. I'm really using this thread to try to learn how to coach myself in matches, because I have no coach or even teammates who can watch me and help out.

The thing wilkinru said about my opponent having his feet set for a bh and I'm giving him backhands all day, I didn't even see that or think about it at all. If I can recall that kind of observation when I play later it could help me a lot.

So NL has his reasons for posting what he does, and I have completely different ones. I may never post a win on here. I should start a separate thread called Losing Table Tennis Matches.


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 10:24 
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In regards to the Olsen Set, He is exposing your lack of mobility with his placement of the ball, creating errors as you play a stroke in a poor position.

If you came over to me and said you feel S#!* pushing and cant land a back hand, I'd tell you to set up for your forehand off the serve and attempt some 3 ball attack. I would say serve backspin to his forehand long and short then mix it with some side/top to break the pattern. Also when pushing, push there as well, heavy. As that is drawing errors and then set up for attack when he plays a weaker ball back.

I'd also tell you to start placing the ball more precisely. Make him move more. He lacks mobility as well and when he is moving he is not making you move as much and is also returning weaker balls, so its better for you.

Also. Sometimes you have to expose the other players weakness and this set looks like its returning backspin balls down the forehand and moving around the court. Like it or not, if it works keep doing it until it doesn't, get the win and look to the next match.


As a response to general play this set. I would say that you never really looked like you considered the 3rd ball, to me watching from the outside, it seems that you serve to win the point outright then become reactive instead of proactive. You should be serving to get a favourable ball to play aggressively at, as its the only ball you completely control in the game. I read somewhere you have mobility issues with your knees, in this case serving to get a favourable return is even more important as you want to limit the amount of movement you have to do.

That being said, how moving problematic is movement for you? The attacking play you missed happened mostly when you are getting caught on the baseline standing close to the table or just in a bad position to play that stroke.

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 14:40 
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Thanks, apophis. I usually play close to the table and I do get jammed by deep balls. While I Felt the pressure in the match, I never realized it was because of ball depth - too unobservant, I guess. I am learning to back up a little more but I rarely do it until the 4th ball or first topspin. But my guess is that as I learn to anticipate better, I will do more appropriate things. I am moving better these days, but my knees are still crappy.

I do serve to anticipate the 3rd ball. The quality and depth of his long pushes were what got me. It's a reminder that I have to stop playing vs. ratings sometimes and give credit to the quality of the balls of my opponent.

Thanks again.

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 17:04 
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Yeah I agree about never play the rating. It creates a false sense of what to expect from an opponent, play it as it is on the table as he may have a blindingly good match, or your style suit him to perfection.

I used to get stuck at the table as a junior. I was practicing serve and just standing watching. My coach said that I should practice serving then moving a step back so I had some space to play the next ball more crisply. I think that half step back for you will help with those long pushes.

Also its easier to move forward then backward. You can use this to expose poor movement in opponents, short back spin serve down the forhand, then deep topspin (or fast deep push) in the backhand corner. I find this very a useful play in exposing players that lack agility in my league matches.

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 23:32 
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BRS wrote:

The thing wilkinru said about my opponent having his feet set for a bh and I'm giving him backhands all day, I didn't even see that or think about it at all. If I can recall that kind of observation when I play later it could help me a lot.


In both yourself and others, you should be aware of how your foot positioning affects your stroke. It's one of those thing that really advanced players often use to determine where to hit the ball during their point play. I think Russ and I are more aware of it because we actually played that way at one time and hit backhands both from the forehand and the backhand side and we know what it cost us in transition. Sinha for example still knows to find my wide backhand when he sees me cheating all over the table with my backhand so I am trying to get better at sending my backhand from my forehand side to his forehand side. But today, whenever I see it in an opponent, I know to serve to their short forehand first with a reverse serve in order to encourage them to use their backhand to return the serve. Then having pulled them out of the backhand corner, I then try to put the ball back there since their quality of defense has dropped. Similar things apply to TPB penholders and even players like myself with limited footwork. Executing this play against players under 2000 (short forehand, long backhand) with a simple, obvious, dinked on the table no-spin serve is usually enough to beat them badly depending on how well you execute it because many of them have not trained the footwork to handle it competently. Try it sometime.

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 23:35 
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apophis wrote:
Yeah I agree about never play the rating. It creates a false sense of what to expect from an opponent, play it as it is on the table as he may have a blindingly good match, or your style suit him to perfection.

I used to get stuck at the table as a junior. I was practicing serve and just standing watching. My coach said that I should practice serving then moving a step back so I had some space to play the next ball more crisply. I think that half step back for you will help with those long pushes.

Also its easier to move forward then backward. You can use this to expose poor movement in opponents, short back spin serve down the forhand, then deep topspin (or fast deep push) in the backhand corner. I find this very a useful play in exposing players that lack agility in my league matches.


I use that play a lot too. It is not as effective as it used to be for me any more at my level but I still use something like it. But nowadays, I tend to use it more when in trouble than as the primary way to win a match. I do intend to practice it with pushing this weekend though as well as a few other patterns.

But adjusting to push depth is something I should put on my list for practicing as well.

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 00:25 
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NextLevel wrote:
If you are curious, this is my next match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2lGn9bxmS0


What was the rating of this opponent NL?

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 00:37 
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RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
If you are curious, this is my next match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2lGn9bxmS0


What was the rating of this opponent NL?


2150, has been has high as 2400 in his younger days. I like to believe he was having an off day...

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2016, 18:02 
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NextLevel wrote:
What is your coaching advice? What are the strengths and weaknesses? What would you tell me to do?


This guy strongly favours his backhand, and likes to block. You're playing to his strengths, giving him a lot of balls where he can block, with pace he can use against you.

Generally, his footwork is very poor - he mostly reaches. That means if you move him long and short and left and right, he'll loose balance, and you can hit at his body.

Change your service in two ways. First, generally, serve to his crossover point - again, he doesn't move so he'll tuck himself up to return and you'll get a nice third ball opportunity. Secondly, serve short with backspin to his FH, and then loop or flick his return to his BH.

Next game, use more spin, and less speed. A slow loop wide to his FH will give you a chance to play the next ball to his BH, where he'll be out of position.

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2016, 19:22 
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NextLevel wrote:
RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
If you are curious, this is my next match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2lGn9bxmS0


What was the rating of this opponent NL?


2150, has been has high as 2400 in his younger days. I like to believe he was having an off day...



Don't know if he was as large in his younger days, but it would appear that he is restricted in his game by his size. I've played a guy of this size years ago who certainly had great skills, but admitted himself that he'd be a lot better if he could lose 50kg or more (and I think that guy was better than this one and moved faster). You can see this guy has some shots, provided the ball is pretty much where he needs it, and he often manages to block if not. But get too much angle on him and he goes missing. His serves don't look too effective, and again it may be his size restricting how much whip and brush he is able to impart. Or they may be better than they look, but they look too high and mid-ranged placed. Maybe he was having a bad day, but I didn't see things that looked like he'd normally be better. I think you outclassed him and it surprises me he has that rating....unless he is slowly coming down. But, big guys like this can be deceiving and under-estimated. Which may have helped him win a lot of matches in the past. A funny little anecdote about the guy I played, who weighed 175kg (which he just blurted out after what happened). I hit a wide angled pip shot which he struggled to reach and the next thing the floor is shaking and there's this massive THUD! He fell over trying to reach the shot and a guy that size going down was like a mini earthquake. Fortunately he was ok, but I wasn't sure he would be for a second.

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2016, 19:36 
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RebornTTEvnglist wrote:

Don't know if he was as large in his younger days, but it would appear that he is restricted in his game by his size. I've played a guy of this size years ago who certainly had great skills, but admitted himself that he'd be a lot better if he could lose 50kg or more (and I think that guy was better than this one and moved faster). You can see this guy has some shots, provided the ball is pretty much where he needs it, and he often manages to block if not. But get too much angle on him and he goes missing. His serves don't look too effective, and again it may be his size restricting how much whip and brush he is able to impart. Or they may be better than they look, but they look too high and mid-ranged placed. Maybe he was having a bad day, but I didn't see things that looked like he'd normally be better. I think you outclassed him and it surprises me he has that rating....unless he is slowly coming down. But, big guys like this can be deceiving and under-estimated. Which may have helped him win a lot of matches in the past. A funny little anecdote about the guy I played, who weighed 175kg (which he just blurted out after what happened). I hit a wide angled pip shot which he struggled to reach and the next thing the floor is shaking and there's this massive THUD! He fell over trying to reach the shot and a guy that size going down was like a mini earthquake. Fortunately he was ok, but I wasn't sure he would be for a second.


He wasn't as large when younger, but even in his current form, I would put money on him over any pips player he faced. He just reads the ball too well and has too much touch unless you outpace him or make him move a lot with quickness. He said he has been doing lots of strength type gym fitness competitions recently so his game is not quite where it should be. He has an athletes heart (was into powerlifting in his college days), but can't keep up the level of activity to match his appetite, but trust me, he is far more athletic than it appears and I put it all down to his heart. He did 10 -20 push ups later that evening after that match before leaving the hall just give us an idea of where he is now.

I used to miss his serves A LOT, and I chalk that match up to a day of confidence and experience playing him. And of course, the few I did pop up, for some crazy reason, my block was on that day so I think he was frustrated not getting free points looping to my forehand like he usually does.

Here is one of the funniest TT videos of all time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlHtaoyYYSQ

Here is a match from November last year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGhbkKjYym0

Vs Hidetoshi Oya:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi-Gh1wvf3E

One of my favorite videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr2ha6CxVJk

This gives you an idea of when he was younger, and he had better times too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvQZm-3cDcI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTfI_Akqjw8

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2016, 23:31 
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Wow! There are some good vids there NL. I can see why 50 Ways to beat a lobber is your fave. Very enjoyable....and corny but clever music score :lol:

I doubt Larry could beat that lobber these days. I'm amazed he had the energy to keep it up at the weight he was then. We have 3 guys in my division who play almost exactly as that lobber, except our court sizes are smaller and it restricts them a bit. One of them is my teammate.

The ghost serve vid is great. He does it well. I know how hard that is, although I can do it, its tricky to be that consistent (unless there is edits in the vid). The fact that his weight pulls him aside for so long though means its useless though, as a quick chop (or in my case a pip roll) to his FH and he is dead.

NextLevel wrote:
even in his current form, I would put money on him over any pips player he faced....


Well I doubt I'll get to play him anytime soon, but I'd back myself against him as I believe I could angle him around to points he just couldn't reach the ball. ;) No chance to prove that of course. :headbang:

I detect he is quite a nice guy from a few little signs in his vids though (like his head bow to Hidetoshi). He reminds me of a slightly over-sized John Goodman. Am I right? :)

I tell you one thing though, he's bloody lucky to have 2 good knees (how the hell he has I don't know, cos he has to be at least 175kg and that's huge knee pressure).

Thanks for sharing NL!

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2016, 23:43 
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Actually, I'm sitting here watching Oya and his game is so similar to one of the kids at my club. He's in a division higher than me (the division I was in last season). I beat him 2/2 matches cos he just couldn't maintain his game against my consistency. The first time I played him I wiped him 3-0. The second time, I also beat him 3-0, but he was something like 7-1 up on me to start with just hitting those amazingly fast FH loops down my FH side. I pulled him up and beat him 12-10 in that first set and took the wind from his sails, and I had no problem after that. He is now running our TT club on his own under the guidance of our absent president and as such while my team finished well above his, we were demoted and he inserted himself into another team lol. His game is more erratic than Oya's, but still not dissimilar in style and look (and when he's on, he can perform similarly, his head holds him back though).

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