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PostPosted: 17 Aug 2016, 11:54 
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Joined: 20 Apr 2016, 13:47
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Location: Tasmania, Australia
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Blade: GiantDragon Kris2
FH: Reactor Corbor
BH: Yasaka Anti Power
This is my blog of the physics behind blades - a STEM project. I'm building a series of blades by 3D printing, and laser cutting. Essentially, I have done a lot of study into the physics of rubbers (see the link in my signature), so testing blades seemed like the natural progression. I have put a series of links at the bottom of this post, which will give links to the various threads related to this topic. I will post information and breakthroughs on here, and I will also keep a journal on here - feel free to give any advice, tips, ideas, or encouragement - the more minds, the better! This is kind of like a database of my blade studies, and will be updated regularly. Enjoy!

The plan at the moment (for the experiment):
1. Do tests on the first 3 blades.

The blog plan:
1. Upload results.

Threads:
Cheap rubbers: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29786
Non-wood material list & suggestions: viewtopic.php?f=43&t=30265&p=322166
How heavy should a bat be?: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30132
Testing for a blade's stiffness: viewtopic.php?f=43&p=323009

_________________
New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
The author of How Spin Works. The Official How Spin Works Thread. How Spin Works goes to India!
See my 3D Printed/Laser Cut blade experiment blog.


Last edited by Musicfreak0 on 13 Sep 2016, 13:59, edited 7 times in total.

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PostPosted: 17 Aug 2016, 12:50 
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Blade: Trinity Carbon
FH: Victas VS > 401
BH: Dornenglanz OX
Sounds great! :up: :up: :up:

What material are you making the blades out of?

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OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Table Tennis Reviews / Articles | Table Guide | Robot Guide | Re-Impact Blades
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide | Novel way to glue OX pips


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PostPosted: 17 Aug 2016, 13:01 
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I say sod the rules.. :lol: Print them out of ABS, including the faces and a honeycomb core.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 17 Aug 2016, 16:04 
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Blade: GiantDragon Kris2
FH: Reactor Corbor
BH: Yasaka Anti Power
haggisv wrote:
Sounds great! :up: :up: :up:

What material are you making the blades out of?


All sorts of materials; in fact, I’m putting up a thread for material ideas. I’m printing/cutting using random plywood found in the tech block at school, but at this stage, I'm just playing around to see if I can actually make one of these things!
In the future, I'm intending to use PLA (don't worry Iskandar, I'll see what I can to with the printing density - should be interesting), and (separately) balsa, various other forms of timber (we'll see how that pans out :) ) acrylic, metals, fibreglass, carbon fibre, cardboard and other things! I'll start this other thread (hopefully all the threads about this experiment don't get in the way of the rest of the forum - let me know if they do), but this thread will look at suggestions quite in-depth. In the meantime, I'll work on putting my variables up.

Here it is (also on the first post): viewtopic.php?f=43&t=30265&p=322166

_________________
New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
The author of How Spin Works. The Official How Spin Works Thread. How Spin Works goes to India!
See my 3D Printed/Laser Cut blade experiment blog.


Last edited by Musicfreak0 on 21 Aug 2016, 21:04, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016, 21:26 
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Joined: 20 Apr 2016, 13:47
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Location: Tasmania, Australia
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Blade: GiantDragon Kris2
FH: Reactor Corbor
BH: Yasaka Anti Power
Dimensions of my blades will be as follows (based off my N-9s):


Attachments:
File comment: Dimensions
Screen Shot 2016-08-18 at 9.55.04 pm.png
Screen Shot 2016-08-18 at 9.55.04 pm.png [ 223.9 KiB | Viewed 794 times ]

_________________
New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
The author of How Spin Works. The Official How Spin Works Thread. How Spin Works goes to India!
See my 3D Printed/Laser Cut blade experiment blog.
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PostPosted: 21 Aug 2016, 21:03 
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Joined: 20 Apr 2016, 13:47
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Blade: GiantDragon Kris2
FH: Reactor Corbor
BH: Yasaka Anti Power
Four of the variables are defined below:

Speed/Power is defined by:
• Flat hits (i.e. raw speed)
• In general, speed/power of a racket is defined by having a high coefficient of restitution (or a high bounce efficiency); that is, the capability giving a ball a high velocity.
Measured by:
• Drop test with and without rubber.
• Flat robot test - rebound speed measured (and compared to incoming speed) (with backing & without) - we can get a graph of how fast it is at different speeds.
Affected by:
• Stiffness/Flex: More stiffness generally means more power, especially on flat hits, but more flex gives more power on big loops, as a large amount of spin is required.
• Hardness/Softness: Harder = more power.
• Mass: More mass allows for more momentum, but less weight means the racket can be moved quicker and easier.


Spin is defined by:
• Throw angle on robot.
• Ability to impart spin on a variety of strokes (i.e. fast loops, slow chops, serves, etc.)
Measured by:
• Robot topspin test.
Affected by:
• Stiffness/Flex - more flex means more dwell time
• Hardness/Softness - softer means more dwell time
• Dwell Time* - more dwell time means more contact with the ball, thus increased spin.
*Dwell time is affected by both stiffness and flex, but directly affects spin in itself.


Reversal is defined by:
• The continuation of spin of a pimples-out rubber (typically anti-spin or LP) on:
Passive shots, chops, blocks, service receive, etc.
Measured by:
• Measuring rotation speed in slow-motion?
• Qualitative data
Affected by:
• The opposite of spin properties:
• Stiffness/Flex - generally, stiffer means more reversal, as it decreases dwell time
• Hardness/Softness: harder blades generally have a shorter dwell time
• Dwell time: the less dwell time, the less spin; thus more reversal


Control is defined by:
• Control is almost purely subjective, and it depends on the player, so it is affected by the balance of:
• Mass / distribution and balance; size & shape - being too heavy can slow down quick changes of movement, but being too light can reduce potential power.
• Stiffness/Flex - too much flex can make the blade feel "weak" or "floppy", while too little flex can make it feel hard and brittle.
• Hardness/Softness - if a blade is too hard, then it may feel like it is difficult to play shorter shots and impart more spin; if it is too soft it may feel too slow and "mushy".
• Speed/Power - Being too fast makes it difficult to control short shots, being too slow makes it harder to hit faster shots.
• Spin - Too little spin makes it hard to perform shots like loops and chops, and can make ordinarily spinny shots easier for the opposition to return. Also, if a blade causes a racket to have a particularly low throw angle, then the ball often doesn't follow the direction of the stroke as closely. If, however, a blade causes a high throw angle (meaning it has very high spin), then it can make chopping or attacking backspin difficult (as the ball drops, making it hard to hit over the ball), and reacts more to spin when returning serves.
• Reversal - Different amounts of reversal are desired for different antispin/pimple rubbers (SP generally being the least, LP being the most). It is important to be able to create soon with some pips, as it (generally) makes it more difficult to tell the type of the rubber, how it behaves, and it allows for a greater variety of shots to be played with that rubber.
Measured by:
• Qualitative feedback from various players
• Finding a balance between other characteristics

_________________
New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
The author of How Spin Works. The Official How Spin Works Thread. How Spin Works goes to India!
See my 3D Printed/Laser Cut blade experiment blog.


Last edited by Musicfreak0 on 13 Sep 2016, 14:45, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 21 Aug 2016, 23:58 
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Joined: 07 Nov 2014, 13:26
Posts: 427
Location: Bogor, Indonesia
Has thanked: 1875 times
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Blade: B.Pemula Custom
FH: DHS Hurricane 3
BH: Yinhe/Galaxy Neptune
Musicfreak0 wrote:
Four of the variables are defined below:

Speed/Power is defined in two different ways:
• Flat hits (i.e. raw speed)
• Loop speeds (i.e. Top speed on a topspin stroke)
• In general, speed/power of a racket is defined by having a high coefficient of restitution (or a high bounce efficiency); that is, the capability giving a ball a high velocity.
Measured by:
• Drop test with and without rubber.
• Flat robot test - rebound speed measured (with backing & without)
Affected by:
• Stiffness/Flex: More stiffness generally means more power, especially on flat hits, but more flex gives more power on big loops, as a large amount of spin is required.
• Hardness/Softness: Harder = more power.
• Mass: More mass allows for more momentum, but less weight means the racket can be moved quicker and easier.


Spin is defined by:
• Throw angle on robot.
• Ability to impart spin on a variety of strokes (i.e. fast loops, slow chops, serves, etc.)
Measured by:
• Robot topspin test.
Affected by:
• Stiffness/Flex - more flex means more dwell time
• Hardness/Softness - softer means more dwell time
• Dwell Time* - more dwell time means more contact with the ball, thus increased spin.
*Dwell time is affected by both stiffness and flex, but directly affects spin in itself.


Reversal is defined by:
• The continuation of spin of a pimples-out rubber (typically anti-spin or LP) on:
Passive shots, chops, blocks, service receive, etc.
Measured by:
• Measuring rotation speed in slow-motion?
• Qualitative data
Affected by:
• The opposite of spin properties:
• Stiffness/Flex - generally, stiffer means more reversal, as it decreases dwell time
• Hardness/Softness: harder blades generally have a shorter dwell time
• Dwell time: the less dwell time, the less spin; thus more reversal


Control is defined by:
• Control is almost purely subjective, and it depends on the player, so it is affected by the balance of:
• Mass / distribution and balance; size & shape - being too heavy can slow down quick changes of movement, but being too light can reduce potential power.
• Stiffness/Flex - too much flex can make the blade feel "weak" or "floppy", while too little flex can make it feel hard and brittle.
• Hardness/Softness - if a blade is too hard, then it may feel like it is difficult to play shorter shots and impart more spin; if it is too soft it may feel too slow and "mushy".
• Speed/Power - Being too fast makes it difficult to control short shots, being too slow makes it harder to hit faster shots.
• Spin - Too little spin makes it hard to perform shots like loops and chops, and can make ordinarily spiny shots easier for the opposition to return. Also, if a blade causes a racket to have a particularly low throw angle, then the ball often doesn't follow the direction of the stroke as closely. If, however, a blade causes a high throw angle (meaning it has very high spin), then it can make chopping or attacking backspin difficult (as the ball drops, making it hard to hit over the ball), and reacts more to spin when returning serves.
• Reversal - Different amounts of reversal are desired for different antispin/pimple rubbers (SP generally being the least, LP being the most). It is important to be able to create soon with some pips, as it (generally) makes it more difficult to tell the type of the rubber, how it behaves, and it allows for a greater variety of shots to be played with that rubber.
Measured by:
• Qualitative feedback from various players
• Finding a balance between other characteristics


Agree with most of it. ;)

Some note,

- Imho, most of topspin speed came from combi ability to generate spin, so, no need to separate topspin speed with topspin spin. On pure brushloop, Geospin Tacky or H3 can be as fast as Tenergy. :D

- Control can be collectively made objective, define by probability of the next person can used it well, and he like it, provided the playstyle match. :D

Sent from my T1X Plus using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: 22 Aug 2016, 06:37 
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Blade: GiantDragon Kris2
FH: Reactor Corbor
BH: Yasaka Anti Power
BeGo wrote:
Agree with most of it. ;)

Some note,

- Imho, most of topspin speed came from combi ability to generate spin, so, no need to separate topspin speed with topspin spin. On pure brushloop, Geospin Tacky or H3 can be as fast as Tenergy. :D

- Control can be collectively made objective, define by probability of the next person can used it well, and he like it, provided the playstyle match. :D


Thanks BeGo; I've edited it accordingly.

_________________
New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
The author of How Spin Works. The Official How Spin Works Thread. How Spin Works goes to India!
See my 3D Printed/Laser Cut blade experiment blog.


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PostPosted: 24 Aug 2016, 20:56 
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Joined: 20 Apr 2016, 13:47
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Location: Tasmania, Australia
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Blade: GiantDragon Kris2
FH: Reactor Corbor
BH: Yasaka Anti Power
Two new blades have been printed/cut! I will update over the next few days with pictures and notes!
I will also put the rest of my variables up.

_________________
New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
The author of How Spin Works. The Official How Spin Works Thread. How Spin Works goes to India!
See my 3D Printed/Laser Cut blade experiment blog.


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PostPosted: 24 Aug 2016, 21:33 
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Blade: Barwell Fleet
FH: Adidas p5 max
BH: Joola Rhyzm max
Interesting, guess I'm gonna wait for u to reveal those two blades with test results and how the composition affect the speed etc.

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PostPosted: 24 Aug 2016, 21:43 
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Blade: GiantDragon Kris2
FH: Reactor Corbor
BH: Yasaka Anti Power
Ahh, the suspense! :lol:
In short, I cut two blades out. One was 3-ply (about 3mm thick all up) just out of scrap plywood, while the other was exactly the same, but I laminated two together, so I had a 6mm thick 6-ply blade. As I'm still very early in the trialling of actually getting these blades printed, I just laminated these plies together with double-sided tape, and taped the handles on (like I said, this is only as a rough guide - the scientific tests will be more accurate)!
You can imagine that the 3mm blade was super flexible and therefore really slow, but the 6mm was actually quite usable. More details will follow over the next few days.

_________________
New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
The author of How Spin Works. The Official How Spin Works Thread. How Spin Works goes to India!
See my 3D Printed/Laser Cut blade experiment blog.


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PostPosted: 27 Aug 2016, 15:01 
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Blade: GiantDragon Kris2
FH: Reactor Corbor
BH: Yasaka Anti Power
Here are the pictures of the blades; some with rubbers, some without. Details of how they play to follow.
Blade 1: (About 3.3mm thick) FH: Friendship RITC 563 (OX), BH: Yinhe Neptune (OX)
ImageImage
Image
Image
Image
Blade 2: (About 6.6mm thick - two Blade 1s stuck together) FH: Friendship 802 (1.5mm), BH: Palio CK531A (~0.5mm)
ImageImage
Image
Image
All-Acrylic Blade: (About 3mm thick) FH: Friendship 802 (1.5mm), BH: Dr N Super Block (OX)
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

_________________
New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
The author of How Spin Works. The Official How Spin Works Thread. How Spin Works goes to India!
See my 3D Printed/Laser Cut blade experiment blog.


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PostPosted: 27 Aug 2016, 20:16 
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Blade: Trinity Carbon
FH: Victas VS > 401
BH: Dornenglanz OX
Wow that looks really cool great little project you have there, fascinating! :rock: :rock: :rock:

Regarding your variables, I think you should leave control out of it completely, as it's simply too subjective and it depends entirely on the stroke and ball. Control should be able to be determined from the other measurements. For example a rubber with low spin will have low sensitivity to spin. Similarly a slow rubber or blade will give better control over the pace of the ball. I'm confident all control values can be deduced from other measurements.

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OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Table Tennis Reviews / Articles | Table Guide | Robot Guide | Re-Impact Blades
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide | Novel way to glue OX pips


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PostPosted: 27 Aug 2016, 20:37 
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Joined: 20 Apr 2016, 13:47
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Blade: GiantDragon Kris2
FH: Reactor Corbor
BH: Yasaka Anti Power
Thanks for the insight, haggis! I agree with you on the control, but I'm still including it as a rough guide - purely qualitative.
I'm still yet to add the flex and hardness definitions, and write up my qualitative data for the first 3 blades. I'll get around to testing for quantitative data soon. :oops:

_________________
New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
The author of How Spin Works. The Official How Spin Works Thread. How Spin Works goes to India!
See my 3D Printed/Laser Cut blade experiment blog.


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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2016, 13:06 
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Why the pips out?

Iskandar


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