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 Post subject: Red Roar's Infinity Loop
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2016, 11:04 
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I thought I'd start a blog.
Feel free to comment and or give suggestions.
Here's a short introduction, if you're interested?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=431&start=2040

It has taken me about 4-5 months of working on the serve mechanics that Brett showed me in June.
He said I had the mechanics correct relatively early, but timing the contact has taken all this time.
It's still not 100% correct but about a month ago 'something clicked'.
I was doing serve practice and over two nights in three days I served 200 balls of 4-5 variations.
I would start with 200 in a row of trying to do heavy under spin. No side spin at all.
Then 200 no spin from the same movement as the heavy under spin.
Then 200 pendulum side top, then 200 pendulum side under.
Then I'd work on 200 of a mixture of these serves.

So on day two the timing just worked and I started getting pretty good heavy under spin and as I was half way through my side top serves it occurred to me that I wasn't really using the same whip motion and so I tried a pendulum side top serve with the regular high elbow position, but I was trying to remember what the timing and feel of the contact for the now actual heavy straight under spin serve.
And well that instantly clicked too.
Then I tried it with the side under and it's working as well.

Well needless to say it felt very good.
To be honest I was wondering if it was ever going to work for me, or that it might take years.

Fortunately the next night was our club night and I brought my new serves with me.
To say that they were effective was an understatement.
On the first night only 2 players returned my heavy under spin serve, and one of them was about 50/50.
All other players dumped EVERY heavy under spin serve. This is a group of similar level peers including a few player that I either rarely beat, or one guy whom I've never won a match against.


I wasn't very consistent on the first night and I'm still not 100% consistent with these serves.
The side top and side under are by far the most reliable.

I recently played a tournament and had mixed results.
Several opponents beat me 3-0. But once again, every time I landed a heavy under spin serve, they dumped it.
If it was heavy-ish but I didn't make perfect contact then they would push it back.
Almost no one tried to attack it.

Now one thing that I noticed with the spin quantity increase of these serves is that my expected return has changed.
So my 3rd ball attack is now much less consistent as well.

I have quite a few serves types in my repertoire, but I've decided to put those away for a while.
I also realized that my 3rd ball attack and then continuous attack after the third ball is no longer as strong as it used to be, and maybe it never was.
Maybe switching through serves is giving people fits and then it makes my strong attacks stronger.
I have no problem with this, except I think I need a lot of match time to see a LOT of different types of returns from my new Core Four serves.
So that my attacks behind these serves are very consistent and dangerous.

Then mixing up my serve game as before combined with the Core Four should start me on the road that I want.

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PostPosted: 11 Nov 2016, 14:47 
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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2016, 13:55 
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I played a few matches today against my friends DJ and Eric.

I have started my match training of my Core4 serves
( heavy under spin, no spin. Side top, side under , all from the BH side of the table.)

It had mixed results.
I'm getting good deception with the side top, and often get a pop up.
But due to my lack Of experience and control of placement with my core 4, I don't always get the expected return that I planned for. But I'm beginning to be able to control The serve a little more and have noticed the following based on today.

When serving a pendulum side top to various placements on my opponents side:
1. Short FH. I often get a small pop up to the middle of the table or FH side.
2. Short crossover. I often get a higher pop up back to my BH side of the table.
I think this is caused by the natural limitations of our wrist to open up the racket angle when we are jammed.
3. Short BH. I often get a variable pop up to my BH side of the table.
4. Half long crossover. I often get a deep pop up or it goes off the table. Sometimes it gets attacked, often the attack goes long as my opponents lift the ball thinking its under spin.
5. Half long to the BH. This often gets attacked. Plus I tend to struggle to get the half long side top low enough to not encourage an attack.

So I was able to start to build my mental data base on how to attack these returns.
It's going to be a long s winding road, but I feel that control of the serves will give me the expected returns that I want.

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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2016, 14:19 
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I've been crazy busy at my new job, so my regular personal practice has not been the greatest lately.

Anyway, I put my iPad on the end of the table to record my server practice at the club before anyone arrived.
Not the best angle, I know, I wasn't planning on recording so I didn't have my stand.
The first half or so is all my attempting a straight heavy under spin.
Then I started doing 'heavy' under spin and no spin from the same position.
Then I did some pendulum side top and side under.

Your input would be appreciated, especially on your ability to read the difference between under spin and no spin, or the difference between the side top or side under.
That's almost always how I pair these serves.

https://youtu.be/-GhlRoFteiQ

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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2017, 17:22 
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This is a match from last week.
January 17.

I'm in green and play shake hand.
David is in blue and plays Traditional Chinese penhold.

We have a small club of about 30 players, with about 18 showing up on any given night.
David is ranked 1st at our club.
I'm ranked 5th.
I've never taken a match off David and only taken him to 5 games once.
I usually take a game off him.

I purposely recorded this match for tactical reasons, but I'd welcome advice about mechanics and other input as well.
There are some issues that I'm aware of, but I'll leave it out for you to notice and I'd welcome your advice.

I can't seem to embed the video, so if a Mod could do it or tell me what I'm doing wrong, I'd appreciate it. I'm using an iPad, I don't know if that matters.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=GFcdEvQGp30


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2017, 19:23 
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(needed a www in the web address for embed to work)

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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2017, 20:19 
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game 1:
you:1: fault
2: he dumped backspin push
him:3: low/no spin serve long
4: heavy backspin
5: missed bh loop open
6: fh tomahawk missed
7: bh open missedyou
8: 1 step around fh landed but out of position
9: he missed push (dump)
10: serve fault
11: you dumped fh push (med backspin)
12: you dumped loop (heavy backspin)

G1 summary:
3 serve faults
3 missed pushes (2bh, 1 heavy, 1 nospin, 1 fh heavy)
2 missed backhand (1 rip 1 loop)
1 step around fh landed but out of position
1 step around fh missed (vs high push)

him: dumped 2 serves both bh

overall theme: You lost the game - too many mistakes. too many faults. Not sure what the intent of your tomahawk serve was (where did you expect the return to go and what was your follow up hit?).


game 2:
him 1: 1 missed block
2: 1 dumped push you tried to fast push (1bh)
you 3: 1 step around fh missed
4: 1 good counterhit vs a hit (4th point nospin serve)
5: good rally but it bounced up at you (table distancing/contact too late) and you netted it -longest rally
6: good putaway
7: looped into his bh (he punched)
8: got away with a really high serve (he thought there was less spin and he could fast push)
9: topspin serve out of his hand
10: good spin on loop
11: he missed a fh
12: didn't commit to that fh (step around)
13: out of the hand topspin
14: bh came at you too fast for your loop (no backswing/setup)
15: misread spin on bh loop
16: fault

g2 summary:
1 missed spin push
2 misread topspin serves to you

theme: less unforced errors, more effort from him.
You keep trying to nail his backhand but he's clearly used to that. Only seen a few fh points so far, but i'd say his bh is better than his fh after 2 games.

game3:
1: good serve (he dumped into net)
2: he misread hit spin
3: he missed a fh
4: he did good bh hit
5: good loop into his bh
6: mistimed bh loop
7: he hit a high bouncing loop to fh from mid table
8: misread bh loop
9: lucky net
10: mistimed bh loop (high bouncing)
11: missed a bh hit high to middle
12: good bh loop
13: mistime steparound fh
14: missed fh
15: nospin serve and he hit an awkwardish loop. just needed to block it to his fh and i'd guess you would have taken the point.
16: backspin serve
17: stepped around but a plain backspin serve

g3 summary:
- you missed several bh loops here. Your margin of error is pretty low.
- his fh quality is showing here, but I still think his bh is actually better than his fh, unless it's bouncing high directly to his chest

overall: You're making too many mistakes. Need safety.
1) he tends to serve nospin then backspin
2) You're too aggressive on your open. Need margin of error.
>>2a) your bh needs more margin of error. Spin it up. You tried to rip it a few times and landed less than half a dozen through the game.
>>2b) ditto fh
3) you kept going to his bh and lost a lot of points. Most of the time he's just standing there waiting for the bh push/hit
4) the majority of your points were him misreading your serve. Hard to say if this is a good tactic though as he only actually opened off a push 2 or 3 times (and missed at least 1).

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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2017, 21:15 
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Thanks for posting Red Roar, was a good watch.

His serves would frustrate me, just the fact they are so illegal. Not really good enough from the best player and in my view he's gaining an advantage.

That aside though, he just looks to be more consistent and playing lower risk table tennis. Your forehand loop looks more consistent and I'd say when it lands against most other players in the club it doesn't come back. This guy is a little better and catches you out of position a little and it looks like you struggle a little with the transitions from looping backspin to topspin. Might be something to concentrate on.

You backhand looks a little wild at times as mentioned above. Early in the first game you miss one then do a practice swing where you move in with your right leg, I'm wondering, though not sure whether you should be stepping across with you left leg instead.

Note that all the things I've mentioned are also improvements I need to make so was sort of like watching myself at times :).




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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2017, 22:13 
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really, the general idea of his game was just push and block and wait for the mistake.
You're in that phase of the game where you've learnt to loop, and you want to attackattackattack. I think a lot of us has been there at some point
Next phase is where you stop trying to rip everything and focus on getting that first loop on. Make sure it gets on.

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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2017, 02:52 
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Silver wrote:
(needed a www in the web address for embed to work)


Thanks.
I'll try that.

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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2017, 03:03 
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Silver wrote:
game 1:
you:1: fault
2: he dumped backspin push
him:3: low/no spin serve long
4: heavy backspin
5: missed bh loop open
6: fh tomahawk missed
7: bh open missedyou
8: 1 step around fh landed but out of position
9: he missed push (dump)
10: serve fault
11: you dumped fh push (med backspin)
12: you dumped loop (heavy backspin)

G1 summary:
3 serve faults
3 missed pushes (2bh, 1 heavy, 1 nospin, 1 fh heavy)
2 missed backhand (1 rip 1 loop)
1 step around fh landed but out of position
1 step around fh missed (vs high push)

him: dumped 2 serves both bh

overall theme: You lost the game - too many mistakes. too many faults. Not sure what the intent of your tomahawk serve was (where did you expect the return to go and what was your follow up hit?).


game 2:
him 1: 1 missed block
2: 1 dumped push you tried to fast push (1bh)
you 3: 1 step around fh missed
4: 1 good counterhit vs a hit (4th point nospin serve)
5: good rally but it bounced up at you (table distancing/contact too late) and you netted it -longest rally
6: good putaway
7: looped into his bh (he punched)
8: got away with a really high serve (he thought there was less spin and he could fast push)
9: topspin serve out of his hand
10: good spin on loop
11: he missed a fh
12: didn't commit to that fh (step around)
13: out of the hand topspin
14: bh came at you too fast for your loop (no backswing/setup)
15: misread spin on bh loop
16: fault

g2 summary:
1 missed spin push
2 misread topspin serves to you

theme: less unforced errors, more effort from him.
You keep trying to nail his backhand but he's clearly used to that. Only seen a few fh points so far, but i'd say his bh is better than his fh after 2 games.

game3:
1: good serve (he dumped into net)
2: he misread hit spin
3: he missed a fh
4: he did good bh hit
5: good loop into his bh
6: mistimed bh loop
7: he hit a high bouncing loop to fh from mid table
8: misread bh loop
9: lucky net
10: mistimed bh loop (high bouncing)
11: missed a bh hit high to middle
12: good bh loop
13: mistime steparound fh
14: missed fh
15: nospin serve and he hit an awkwardish loop. just needed to block it to his fh and i'd guess you would have taken the point.
16: backspin serve
17: stepped around but a plain backspin serve

g3 summary:
- you missed several bh loops here. Your margin of error is pretty low.
- his fh quality is showing here, but I still think his bh is actually better than his fh, unless it's bouncing high directly to his chest

overall: You're making too many mistakes. Need safety.
1) he tends to serve nospin then backspin
2) You're too aggressive on your open. Need margin of error.
>>2a) your bh needs more margin of error. Spin it up. You tried to rip it a few times and landed less than half a dozen through the game.
>>2b) ditto fh
3) you kept going to his bh and lost a lot of points. Most of the time he's just standing there waiting for the bh push/hit
4) the majority of your points were him misreading your serve. Hard to say if this is a good tactic though as he only actually opened off a push 2 or 3 times (and missed at least 1).


Wow, I really appreciate the time you put in your analysis.

I'd agree wholeheartedly on your points except one.
The serves that I'm popping up aren't actually no spin, they're topspin.
He essentially only has 3 serves.
Side-under
Side
Side-top

And the 4th serve (mine) in game 2 is also topspin not no spin.
Not trying to bash you, ( it's possible that you're correct about his no spin, I'll actually ask him, but of course, I can confirm what I served, lol. Well at least most days.)

His side top has so much topspin that you can't even use a counter type stroke or it will go long.
It kind of feels like a slow spiny loop.
So if you read it wrong it goes high and often long.
If it lands he's right there on his BH side for the FH smash or loop.

I would definitely agree that I need to get the ball out to his FH more.
As you can see, I struggle massively with his serves and his block and counter game is very strong on a controlled return.
That maybe why I'm going all in a little too much.
And yes my BH loop has taken a dump lately.
I started getting the mechanics started for the BH loop last June with Brett Clark online, but then had to take a 2 month break due to work location. I need to get that straightened out.
When my BH is 'on', aka not a total mess, then I stay in a ton more points and then get my FH into play which is my biggest weapon.

I'll go through your points and see what I need to work on.

Again, thanks.

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Last edited by Red Roar on 24 Jan 2017, 03:27, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2017, 03:19 
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Cobalt wrote:
Thanks for posting Red Roar, was a good watch.

His serves would frustrate me, just the fact they are so illegal. Not really good enough from the best player and in my view he's gaining an advantage.

That aside though, he just looks to be more consistent and playing lower risk table tennis. Your forehand loop looks more consistent and I'd say when it lands against most other players in the club it doesn't come back. This guy is a little better and catches you out of position a little and it looks like you struggle a little with the transitions from looping backspin to topspin. Might be something to concentrate on.

You backhand looks a little wild at times as mentioned above. Early in the first game you miss one then do a practice swing where you move in with your right leg, I'm wondering, though not sure whether you should be stepping across with you left leg instead.

Note that all the things I've mentioned are also improvements I need to make so was sort of like watching myself at times.


Thanks Cobalt.

Yes, his serves are about as illegal as it gets.
Yes, he's getting a spin level advantage by throwing the ball into the rubber.
But his level of totally legal deception of which serve that he's using is actually the bigger issue.
I've long since figured out his movements.
1. Side-under = if you see anything but a vertical racket angle, then it's medium heavy side under.
2. Side = vertical blade angle and the contact is on the inside and the racket head comes through the ball with the tip of the racket barely coming up.
3. Side-top = same contact position as Side, but he doesn't come through the ball and he flicks his wrist at the end and the tip of the racket pops up.

The trouble is that each of these serves have very very similar set up and back swings and the over all serve motion is small and his serves are fast so you have to figure everything out, move and do what we do very quickly.

Your point about under spin to topspin transition is right on too.
I have some days where it's working well, but it's not to the point yet where I always make the transition properly.

And you're right on the money about my wild BH.
It's a current work in progress and it wasn't having a good day.

Thanks for your comments.

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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2017, 07:58 
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Red Roar wrote:

Wow, I really appreciate the time you put in your analysis.

I'd agree wholeheartedly on your points except one.
The serves that I'm popping up aren't actually no spin, they're topspin.
He essentially only has 3 serves.
Side-under
Side
Side-top

And the 4th serve (mine) in game 2 is also topspin not no spin.
Not trying to bash you, ( it's possible that you're correct about his no spin, I'll actually ask him, but of course, I can confirm what I served, lol. Well at least most days.)

His side top has so much topspin that you can't even use a counter type stroke or it will go long.
It kind of feels like a slow spiny loop.
So if you read it wrong it goes high and often long.
If it lands he's right there on his BH side for the FH smash or loop.

I would definitely agree that I need to get the ball out to his FH more.
As you can see, I struggle massively with his serves and his block and counter game is very strong on a controlled return.
That maybe why I'm going all in a little too much.
And yes my BH loop has taken a dump lately.
I started getting the mechanics started for the BH loop last June with Brett Clark online, but then had to take a 2 month break due to work location. I need to get that straightened out.
When my BH is 'on', aka not a total mess, then I stay in a ton more points and then get my FH into play which is my biggest weapon.

I'll go through your points and see what I need to work on.

Again, thanks.


Yep no worries, I was typing while watching so definitely possible i missed what he did. I felt most of them were nospins probably because you automatically pushed a lot of them.

So the other thing, and more of technique and experience, the topspin serves are all counterloopable - it's just a matter of touch. If it's going long, use soft hands and just guide it back over.

Anyway, did you ever try off his backspin serves, letting it drop a bit and spinning the crap out of it?

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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2017, 08:13 
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Silver wrote:
Red Roar wrote:

Wow, I really appreciate the time you put in your analysis.

I'd agree wholeheartedly on your points except one.
The serves that I'm popping up aren't actually no spin, they're topspin.
He essentially only has 3 serves.
Side-under
Side
Side-top

And the 4th serve (mine) in game 2 is also topspin not no spin.
Not trying to bash you, ( it's possible that you're correct about his no spin, I'll actually ask him, but of course, I can confirm what I served, lol. Well at least most days.)

His side top has so much topspin that you can't even use a counter type stroke or it will go long.
It kind of feels like a slow spiny loop.
So if you read it wrong it goes high and often long.
If it lands he's right there on his BH side for the FH smash or loop.

I would definitely agree that I need to get the ball out to his FH more.
As you can see, I struggle massively with his serves and his block and counter game is very strong on a controlled return.
That maybe why I'm going all in a little too much.
And yes my BH loop has taken a dump lately.
I started getting the mechanics started for the BH loop last June with Brett Clark online, but then had to take a 2 month break due to work location. I need to get that straightened out.
When my BH is 'on', aka not a total mess, then I stay in a ton more points and then get my FH into play which is my biggest weapon.

I'll go through your points and see what I need to work on.

Again, thanks.


Yep no worries, I was typing while watching so definitely possible i missed what he did. I felt most of them were nospins probably because you automatically pushed a lot of them.

So the other thing, and more of technique and experience, the topspin serves are all counterloopable - it's just a matter of touch. If it's going long, use soft hands and just guide it back over.

Anyway, did you ever try off his backspin serves, letting it drop a bit and spinning the crap out of it?


Yes, I agree that his topspin serves are counterloopable, it just struggle with doing it with my BH due to the high amount of side spin on it and he's very good at serve placement.
If I cheat early to pivot, the next time he'll be more keen to watch for it.

Re:waiting for the back spin serves.
I have done that a few times and to great effect actually.
It usually goes 4' high with a ton of spin, but he then misses it because of the kick or blocks it off the table.

I need to start doing that more.

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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2017, 16:01 
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Some matches from last week.

Davids match was a little closer.
Rainer plays with a BH rubber that is somewhat like anti, but does grab the ball a little.
Eric uses a standard attacking euro set up.
Tom is using thin sponged (1.0mm I think) reflectoid and thin sponged

I have never beaten David.
I would consider Rainer, Eric, and Tom more or less the same level as myself.
I've lost many matches to each of them.
Although currently I think I may be winning slightly more than I lose against them.

I'm wearing dark green in all videos.

Thanks iskandar for the suggestion to quote his post to see what the embedded code looks like.
Now I finally have it.

Vs Eric


Vs Rainer


Vs Tom


Vs David

_________________
Donic Li Ping
FH: H3 Provincial Blue sponge
BH: Baracuda Big Slam 2.0


Last edited by Red Roar on 08 Mar 2017, 03:17, edited 4 times in total.

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