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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 08:43 
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Had a nice chill session tonight. Little bit of practise then few matches with the young man, division 2 player I have played with a few times now. I played 2xbest of 5s with my VKM + Dtecs OX and didn't drop a single set with only 1 set being close 11-9.
And I played 1 best of 5 with my JSH + FL2, 1.1mm again dropping no sets but slightly closer as I made a few mistakes with BH but won slightly more with FH.

Bare in mind before I have always had close matches even losing 1 time to him. So this was a nice boost to know I can handle him a lot easier now.

I also played a division 3 lady, blocker/hitter. Passive when receiving back spin. I played her twice, once with each bat. I demolished her with the Dtecs to the point I felt bad. But a lot closer with the FL2 she even commented she prefers I play with the FL2 lol. The sets were like 11-7 11-8 Compared to 11-2 11-3 11-4.

If I had to really analyse purely on my BH from yesterday and today what I notice is my short game is much more dangerous with the Dtecs and the bumps often give me a weak return to which I can step round to FH and either cream it or get a strong enough loop to take charge of the rally. My chopping is consistently lower and longer while being more spinny against even a little top spin EVEN when out of position. The Dtecs just gives me much more margin for error I find while still producing strong shots due to the reversal. Especially against passive play I feel I can relax and not worry too much about reading exactly what's on the ball. But overall can do less with the ball compared with FL2.

Compare this to FL2 where my short game suffers as I feel the bumps are not as effective and have to resort more to pushing. The chopping against light top spin has more spin sometimes and long but I can't seem to keep it low. Against heavier spin the Dtecs produces much more for me than I can get with FL2. My overall consistency drops a fair bit in general with the FL2 and I give away 2 or 3 more free points with my BH.

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Last edited by Ndragon on 02 Apr 2018, 08:49, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 08:44 
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Here's a little slomo point from today

https://youtu.be/YUTdVtRiyko

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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 21:08 
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Problems with OX and being a chopper is that when going higher up the ranks players will start to abuse the fact you use OX. You're totally dependent on the spin of your opponent. By the time you reach that level it'll be very hard to use sponged LPs due to technical differences. You might want to try the 0,5mm version of DTecs: that way you'll keep things open.

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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 00:04 
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Lorre wrote:
Problems with OX and being a chopper is that when going higher up the ranks players will start to abuse the fact you use OX. You're totally dependent on the spin of your opponent. By the time you reach that level it'll be very hard to use sponged LPs due to technical differences. You might want to try the 0,5mm version of DTecs: that way you'll keep things open.


While I agree with you to a certain extent. I also agree that there are plenty of cases where people play at a high non pro lvl with OX and do well. A few of them are featured on threads here on this forum.
I will always keep it in mind that perhaps later in the future I may want/need to consider using a little sponge or even going back to FL2. But I don't think this will be for a long while and even then I would really have to feel stuck

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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 23:05 
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Ndragon wrote:
While I agree with you to a certain extent. I also agree that there are plenty of cases where people play at a high non pro lvl with OX and do well. A few of them are featured on threads here on this forum.
I will always keep it in mind that perhaps later in the future I may want/need to consider using a little sponge or even going back to FL2. But I don't think this will be for a long while and even then I would really have to feel stuck

The guys that play OX to a good level on OOAK are, almost without exception, pushblocker/chopblocker-type players. That's where OX excels, especially D.TecS.

There are one or two really high level OX players like Liu Song and Sun Jian Fei but the only one I know of that chops away from the table with OX is Sun Jian Fei. There are two common denominators with these players' abilities too - they all have a) lightning fast footwork and b) massive forehands.

You'll be able to play to a certain standard with OX, but you'll find it less effective as you play against better players. Actually that may not be entirely true... but you'll have to work a lot harder, and overcome a lot of weaknesses, to get to the same level as if you were playing with thicker-sponged LPs.

Your slow motion point was really cool :) Nice work. One thing I would say though... you're not getting a lot of backspin on your chops, even with the OX. You're making barely any contact. Your opponent was putting quite a bit of spin on the ball, but then ended up looping off because your chops had less spin on than he expected.

For me, personally, and I know it's hard to hear because everyone wants a quick fix, but I think you need to keep working on getting the contact right on your chops. Look on YouTube at the pros when they're chopping the ball, or even someone like myself, you'll notice much more "dwell time" on the ball, a much finer contact - and more arm speed. That's where the backspin AND the control (keeping the ball low and long) comes from.

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 23:56 
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[quote="dunc"]
The guys that play OX to a good level on OOAK are, almost without exception, pushblocker/chopblocker-type players. That's where OX excels, especially D.TecS.

There are one or two really high level OX players like Liu Song and Sun Jian Fei but the only one I know of that chops away from the table with OX is Sun Jian Fei. There are two common denominators with these players' abilities too - they all have a) lightning fast footwork and b) massive forehands.

You'll be able to play to a certain standard with OX, but you'll find it less effective as you play against better players. Actually that may not be entirely true... but you'll have to work a lot harder, and overcome a lot of weaknesses, to get to the same level as if you were playing with thicker-sponged LPs.

Your slow motion point was really cool :) Nice work. One thing I would say though... you're not getting a lot of backspin on your chops, even with the OX. You're making barely any contact. Your opponent was putting quite a bit of spin on the ball, but then ended up looping off because your chops had less spin on than he expected.

For me, personally, and I know it's hard to hear because everyone wants a quick fix, but I think you need to keep working on getting the contact right on your chops. Look on YouTube at the pros when they're chopping the ball, or even someone like myself, you'll notice much more "dwell time" on the ball, a much finer contact - and more arm speed. That's where the backspin AND the control (keeping the ball low and long) comes from.[/quote]


Jian Li with cloud and fog 3 OX. Markus Grothe Dtecs OX. There's another guy who plays in the Belgium league I think uses Dawei OX. Definitely OX but can't remember which ones. There are plenty of people that prefer to chop mid distance that use OX. I don't think I'll get to these guys lvl so it's more about enjoying and feeling for me.

But I agree with what you're saying. Maybe in the future I will change my mind. I feel right now though I am not getting on with the FL2 sponge and I will use Dtecs OX until I get better and IF I feel I need to change.

I appreciate the errors you point out. I know I have a long long way to go and although I may see the errors sometimes it's always good to have them pointed out by someone else as well. Coz sometimes I don't see it myself. And even if I'm improving a little there is always things to work on and I need to be reminded.

The slomo wasn't even a good point tbh it's just what my girl filmed quickly for me. I can get good spin on chops sometimes as the ball goes flying down into the net if not hit properly. But I'll try get more footage so we can pick at it hehe

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Last edited by Ndragon on 04 Apr 2018, 01:16, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 00:12 
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That's weird. It didn't quote you properly. When I get internet up and running in my new place I'll do some youtube searching and watch your vids again too.

The thing is dunc I completely see where you're coming from and half of me agrees as I know it's not wrong. But as we all know with TT equipment it comes down a lot to feeling. The better feeling you have with something usually the more you improve and play. I think I need to take this step back. Give Dtecs a good try for at least a month and see where it takes me. I will have my JSH with FL2 1.1mm to fall back on if ever.

If ever I get the chance to play higher lvl prem players I'll analyse in more detail how I do vs them. Fingers crossed I get to play against the international veteran winner again. Terry Bateman if anyone knows him. He had a good time looping my chops before. Curious to see now

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 00:21 
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Dunc is right as he plays at a very high league level.
I agree that the game is all about feel and by all means enjoy the ox dtecs.
You do right to try and play better players.You will then see what gear works.
Enjoy the journey.
Get a train ticket and visit dunc in sunny newcastle ;)


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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 01:23 
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On a side note, you guys from the UK. Any of you know "Semi Idowu"? He has played a few tournaments now and even a grand prix. He is one of the prem players who smashed me before. I played him only a few times. But he is one of the people I played recently and came close to winning ;)
I was just wondering if Dunc has met him by any chance in a tournament and what he thinks.

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 22:00 
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I know of Semi, yeah. He plays in loads of veterans tournaments, especially the northern ones which a lot of our league vets enter.

I've never actually played against him but I know a few people who have. In a recent tournament for example he beat a retriever I've spoken about a few times in my blog. He won 3-1 with a 19-17 (!) win in the fourth. Last time I played the same retriever, I beat him 8, 8, 6 - but then the retriever beat me in the fifth a season earlier. Semi also beat another lower league player 3-0 with two deuce ends - last time I played that player, I beat him 3, 2, 2.

That means literally nothing though - I wasn't at this event so I have no idea whether Semi was even trying, or perhaps our guys were playing out of their skins. I've also learned, the hard way - and on more than one occasion - that trying to estimate a player's ability to beat me based on how they've faced other players is absolutely and totally worthless :) It comes down to styles. There's a guy I beat comfortably in our Premier Division who has an 80% average - I'm nowhere near good enough to get that kind of average but he's really bad against my serves, spin and pimples. Semi could have serves that I struggle with, or he could hate my serves. Or he could be really comfortable against chop - or awful against it :) Who knows.

I understand your inclination to stick with OX. Maybe it'll be right for you. Maybe it won't be but, but in the short-term, it'll give you the confidence to take the steps you need to. The point I was (pretty poorly) trying to make however is this: don't use it as a crutch. The videos I've seen of your technique genuinely do indicate that you need to continue working on your chops. If OX stops you from doing that because the lesser dwell time is less important... then you'll get stuck with bad habits and that, more than the OX rubber itself, will hinder your development.

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 22:30 
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viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14087

guy is an ox chopper and twiddles to chop on f/h with the ox


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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 22:55 
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dunc wrote:
I know of Semi, yeah. He plays in loads of veterans tournaments, especially the northern ones which a lot of our league vets enter.

I've never actually played against him but I know a few people who have. In a recent tournament for example he beat a retriever I've spoken about a few times in my blog. He won 3-1 with a 19-17 (!) win in the fourth. Last time I played the same retriever, I beat him 8, 8, 6 - but then the retriever beat me in the fifth a season earlier. Semi also beat another lower league player 3-0 with two deuce ends - last time I played that player, I beat him 3, 2, 2.

That means literally nothing though - I wasn't at this event so I have no idea whether Semi was even trying, or perhaps our guys were playing out of their skins. I've also learned, the hard way - and on more than one occasion - that trying to estimate a player's ability to beat me based on how they've faced other players is absolutely and totally worthless :) It comes down to styles. There's a guy I beat comfortably in our Premier Division who has an 80% average - I'm nowhere near good enough to get that kind of average but he's really bad against my serves, spin and pimples. Semi could have serves that I struggle with, or he could hate my serves. Or he could be really comfortable against chop - or awful against it :) Who knows.

I understand your inclination to stick with OX. Maybe it'll be right for you. Maybe it won't be but, but in the short-term, it'll give you the confidence to take the steps you need to. The point I was (pretty poorly) trying to make however is this: don't use it as a crutch. The videos I've seen of your technique genuinely do indicate that you need to continue working on your chops. If OX stops you from doing that because the lesser dwell time is less important... then you'll get stuck with bad habits and that, more than the OX rubber itself, will hinder your development.


I feel like you would both have a good match (if he plays seriously) with maybe you taking the edge. He often messes around, drops back retrieves and lobs as he has a lot of fun doing it and he is pretty good at it too. I have seen him play older people who tend to push against heavy back spin or pip users and he usually demolishes them when he plays seriously and looks to attack. You on the other hand are a modern defender who has a good chop and pretty solid attack and reading of the game.

Yeah I will remember that advice don't worry, I will still look to improve my BH chop technique. I have a very long way to go. I will try get a recent video though as my BH chop has got better since the last video, I just need to get someone who can consistently spin it against me to showcase it. The guy in my Slomo was pretty poor at doing so, he either missed the ball, went into net or off the table I rarely even chopped more than 3 times

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 23:21 
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peterpong wrote:
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14087

guy is an ox chopper and twiddles to chop on f/h with the ox


oh I enjoyed this!

Actually it crossed my mind to go more defensive on the FH seeing as I lose more points than I win with it when I attack. Was thinking more on the lines of either Mark V or perhaps similar rubber now but with 1.7 or 1.9 sponge. The defense works well for this guy but his twiddling is so good :clap:
He just gave me a bit of motivation to give it some more thought

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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2018, 00:44 
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Ndragon wrote:
peterpong wrote:
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14087

guy is an ox chopper and twiddles to chop on f/h with the ox


oh I enjoyed this!

Actually it crossed my mind to go more defensive on the FH seeing as I lose more points than I win with it when I attack. Was thinking more on the lines of either Mark V or perhaps similar rubber now but with 1.7 or 1.9 sponge. The defense works well for this guy but his twiddling is so good :clap:
He just gave me a bit of motivation to give it some more thought


check e bay for rubbers mate.ive bought loads for next to nothing-ive bought antispin long pips mark v etc.you also make loads of contacts on e bay.i recently swapped hellfire ox that i got with a blade for dtecs ox.dtecs ox are very good with the right blade-i went back to antispin though as im playing at a decent level and getting better with it.mark v is very good and safe-very good at blocking-the throw angle is nice and low for me.also never rule out short pips for the f/h


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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2018, 00:58 
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peterpong wrote:

check e bay for rubbers mate.ive bought loads for next to nothing-ive bought antispin long pips mark v etc.you also make loads of contacts on e bay.i recently swapped hellfire ox that i got with a blade for dtecs ox.dtecs ox are very good with the right blade-i went back to antispin though as im playing at a decent level and getting better with it.mark v is very good and safe-very good at blocking-the throw angle is nice and low for me.also never rule out short pips for the f/h


I never thought to buy off Ebay actually I will have a look.
Yeah I started off with Mark Vs 2.0 both sides when I got back into TT after 6 years break. Absolutely love the rubbers.
I find a fault with it at mid distance though when I want to guide a top spin ball back giving the spin back. I find really soft sponges do it best. I got that from my boy Chen Weixing :clap:

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