OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Actually, I tried to cheat today -- had a Yasaka Extra 3D/H2/H3 setup on hand and tried to drill with it today. I don't have the inverted BH anymore...

So I went back to using the 802-40, BH on the SC. Sigh -- seems like I'm totally immersed in the dark side of things, and I don't think it'll be easy to get be back to using inverted BH.

So far, I like spinny SPs like this RITC 802-40 on 35deg soft sponge. It feels to me that it's responsive to spin at low impacts, half-and-half on medium ones, and ignores a lot of spin at high impact. Very interesting, and gives a lot of possibilities.

Service return is now a little bit tricker in a sense -- this SP still is affected by spin, so unread sidespin and underspin causes mistakes. But I can't do strong spinny loops with the SP anymore. I still have to develop a good receive for those services.

Simple underspin services are OK. Light and medium short ones are flipped, I believe. (Have to look for that flipping reference video...), and I'm thinking of what to do with heavy shorts - maybe push. Not enough space over the table for a good backswing. I'm still thinking on what to do on long ones, though...I saw that rolling video. (finally! Megaupload agreed with my demands)

No-spin and topspin services are pretty OK, given that the SP is pretty grippy at times -- quite a few people here are surprised at some spinny fast balls coming from the SP.

Twiddling on service can produce a few errors. It's easier for me to produce various amounts of spin using the SP, even if I'm using the same contact point on the racket. While it's true that the racket angle does give away some of surprise factor...

I'm still actually stuck at the BH crosscourt drive drill as I want my BH as reliable as my FH loop. BH drives would probably part of my core offensive strokes -- I like seeing the surprise when you can hit through loops.

Blocking is quite good. I'm more focused on finesse and technique in blocking now, so I'm working on the basic block, as the racket angles have changed quite a lot, especially against loops. I tried to sidespin block some of the loops, and wow...a winner! Showstopper stroke for the unwary!

Now I'm wondering if it'll be beneficial for me to play with a tensioned inverted on the FH. I like the Sriver EL, but I'm wondering if there's a rubber out there which has about at least the same amount of grip and with more gears and speed. If there isn't, I'll be happy with what I have right now...

I'm working on-table looping and stroke shortening on the inverted right now, while quick topspins seemingly were returned a bit higher than usual, I still have to work on the footwork to capitalize on those pop-ups -- being close to the table also means the amount of time for the next stroke is less. I hit quite a lot of racket edge balls and stalled balls, and missed some swings.

I'm looking forward to my next session. Seems to me that I'm just crossing the days towards a complete conversion to inverted/SP.

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Viscaria. H2 Neo 2.15. Tenergy 05 1.9.

Sounds good Yuzuki!

Keeping a log like this is actually quit useful, and you can see your own progress... Please to see you're totally immerced in the Dark Side too

I really like the 802-40 too, feels real nice when you hit, and you can play with it almost like inverted... does not really suit my style though...

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I concur with Alex for several reasons...

1) As Alex noted, (both 1 and 2) you now have a historical record and reference point
2) You have a way to see your improvement
3) You have a way to engage others to help you out
4) You get better
5) You stay motivated to traain and keep working longer
6) You make others feel good watching your improvemet or accepting their advice
7) You make this forum rock !!!

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

Mates:

1) A record is good...saves my memories and thoughts during that specific period of time...

2) I'm not sure on the improvement part. Perhaps if I put in videos regularly, but I'm afraid that I'm not pretty comfortable leaving the tripod and expensive digicam at the mercy of onlookers. Maybe if I make a buddy or two at the club.

3) I'm actually counting on the SP experts on the forum to be able to help me on these things -- SP is pretty new to me, and the intricacies are just making themselves known.

7) That's because this forum rocks.

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Viscaria. H2 Neo 2.15. Tenergy 05 1.9.

Sounds like good stuff to me Yuz, mate. This forum does rock in so many ways and a documentation of TT progress is a most appropriate use of it....as I have been doing as well. 802-40 is a cool rubber and if I ever get my LP hitting to a point where I am an all-out attacker with it, that will be the time I think I stop using it, and go back to SP. In my mind, this is the best use of SP....a very agressive game from the BH. My advice to you is to try using LP on your BH for a while and when you get attack strokes down on the LP, SP becomes much easier. Enjoy the dark-side!!

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I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
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S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
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If you ever decide to try a really spinny SP you can spring for Raystorm. The top sheet is a bit softer so I can get a bit more spin.

Mainly, though, one wants to avoid the habit of looping with a backhand short pips.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

Had a pips-player try out my bat earlier in the club -- he says that Raystorm and 802-40 were in the same class and both have good feel for his play. He'd probably try out 802-40 because of me. (because of him, I might try out Raystorm after some development on my play!)

I'm still struggling with the blade angle. Sometimes I'm on, and like 15 minutes after, I'm off. Bah...I must doing something wrong, like forgetting to feel the ball and hitting on the peak, or having the bat too far in front instead of hitting the ball close to the front my body...it's nice though that I could hit backhands with the big boys, normally I'm not fast enough in my swing. Due to some tips and coaching here and there, I've learnt to shorten the swing a bit for my BH.

Maybe after 10 hours of multiball...need to set aside some money for that. Didn't learn looping after a day after all...

All in the spirit of learning. *groan*

On the bright side (:lol:), I'm looking to purchase a JO Platin max for the FH. I'll see how it goes against Sriver EL.

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Viscaria. H2 Neo 2.15. Tenergy 05 1.9.

Raystorm and 802-40 very similar. Raystorm is a very little bit easier to use for former inverted players.

I am looking forward to hearing how you like Platin. We can't yet get it from US vendors. They only sell the Platin Soft (which I found to be too soft).

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

Yaz,

The single most important thing about playing with SP is that you MUST stay closer to the table and take the ball earlier. Don't let the ball drop because then you have to brush the ball and that is a lousy shot with SP -- usually. Sometimes by accident you will get a strange spinny slow loop that the opponents will misjudge. But don't try to rely on that. If you take the ball while it is still quite high, you will find fewer racket angle errors.

The biggest adjustment I had to make, interestingly enough, was to learn to hit my forehand from closer to the table (I am about 184 cm tall). My tendency is still to back off the table too far (which is comfortable for my FH) and then I lose my strong attack on my SP backhand. I have to really concentrate on staying on my toes to avoid that.

Most shakehands player with SP tend to be short -- Wang Tao, Ai Fukuhara. Wang also has very short arms, even for his height. For them being able to get their hips to turn on forehands while playing close to the table is an anatomically more natural movement. From your videos, I think this will work for you.

I am a better player with SPs, in spite of my anatomical unsuitability for it. Much steadier from the BH side, which is a good weapon for me.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

Thanks Baal. While it's true that I do most of my FH strokes using trunk rotation, I sometimes feel that I'm losing out on stroke recovery, especially playing close to the table. How is it on your side?

Yes, I also feel that from the SP playing distance, then taking around a step back is a more natural place to start looping, as the spin and pace may have dropped a bit, and the amount of time to react increases a bit.

Tried half-looping with the 802-40. I don't feel it's good percentage stroke, as the grip available on the SP isn't as consistent as an inverted. Grip seems best on medium impacts. I'll have to forget about SP looping for a while, good as a surprise thing though, that dummy loop.

I'm already a couple of sessions into playing SP, and readjusting the FH stroke to suit the closer distance. Funny that I feel that I have to close the bat like a Chinese high-throw inverted, even if using Sriver EL on the FH. Currently kinda embarrassed that I'm doing slow loops and missing quite a few, but I think that's part of life...

The length of ball travel is short. Having power is good, the apparent speed and it's apparent effect are magnified as a side effect of the closer playing distance. Margin for error is smaller, reaction time has to be quicker.

So far, I'm looking at a few girls (no, not that kind of look ) and looking at how they're playing their FH strokes -- might be able to pickup something there.

I think I was also making BH stroke mistakes because of that inverted BH looping motion; my wrist still swivels quite a bit during some backhand drills. Since the rubber is grippy, the ball throw goes long.

And Baal, being a bit chubby, I think, is a big anatomical unsuitability for play. I saw some kids looping and moving better than I do, which I think could be somewhat attributed to their height being a good fit for the table, not having to bend down as much as taller people.

However, I think you do have an advantage on short serve receiving, I think.

I'll probably be multiballing the next session; I think that's a good time for a video...

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Viscaria. H2 Neo 2.15. Tenergy 05 1.9.

Yuzuki, I may be entirely wrong about this, since I haven't seen your video's (where can I find them?), but I get the impression you're having two fundamental problems with the SP: 1 your backhand stroke with SP is too long in the upswing and maybe follow-through, and 2 you tend to close it while performing the stroke.
This is what gave me the impression. You wrote: That suggests you try to loop with the SP, probably not the same way you loop with your forehand, but still. Then: , and this: , suggest that your upswing is more than it should be with SP.
Furthermore, I think you may be closing your bat while playing with your backhand, because you seem to do so with your forehand:.
As I said, I may be wrong. But if I am right, then I would suggest to concentrate on exercises for your backhand only, for a while. Separating the backhand technique from your forehand technique is very important at this stage and takes a lot of time, especially because in match-play you will still be inclined to use two-winged inverted tactics. With your SP backhand try and start from scratch, as it were; start with blocking, and when that's OK go to flipping, after that to driving, then to smashing, and finally to rolling; the trick is to build up the right movement by starting with the shortest type of stroke and gradually going to the longer ones (although no SP stroke is really long or comes anywhere near a swing you'd have to make with inverted). Of course you know these strokes are performed differently with SP, but believe me, your muscles need a lot of time to convince them of it.

Meantime, if you want to be able to attack heavy backspin with your backhand, you might do the following. First, flipping short balls, remind yourself of coming behind the ball with almost no forward speed of the bat, keep it very open, go up real fast making contact with the back of the ball, and be sure to close your bat very late - much later than you were used to do with inverted. You have to let the ball come well up with your bat before you start imparting spin by closing it. Second, attacking long balls, do exactly the same, but start your stroke a bit lower (just below the table) and follow through a bit more (really not too much though). Make this stroke a vehement short one.

It's not just the muscles that need convincing. Even if you consciously know you're playing with SP on your backhand and that's what you really want, subconsciously you'll still have many routines which are linked to play with inverted. They will have to fade. Remaining sharply aware of the difference between SP and INV really will help. Keep reminding yourself of the fact that contrary to popular believe combination-bat play (SP/INV or any other combination) is quite hard; in many ways harder than play with two-winged inverted. Some players turn to SP on their backhands to try and cover problems they have with inverted, but generally that doesn't work, because a technically weak backhand isn't caused by a kind of rubber, but by things like left-right-coordination (which seats in the brain somewhere), different muscle-tone in the left arm (which is quite common), different wrist and finger flexibility in the left hand (quite common too among right-handed males), and so on. Just think of this: playing two-winged inverted your backhand play can be more or less the mirror image of your forehand play, and this suits your brain and your body just fine because they are more or less symmetrical. But playing a combination game, on your left you have to do something quite different from what you're doing on your right, and this suits your symmetry-craving mind and body much less. It can be done, though. It just takes time and a lot of effort.

I hope this helps!

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Without opponent, no match.

All of the suggestions above make sense to me. It sounds like you're on the right road and the issues you're having now are the same ones I had when I switched from inverted to short pips a few years ago.

The things that took the longest were shortening my stroke, not automatically doing an inverted loop on long balls, not automatically pushijng short balls and closing my bat too much on the SP side.

So:

1) Think about what you're doing while practicing, the journal will help this. Don't worry about winning practice games right now, focus on getting the new techniques down.

2) Pay attention to the advice people are giving you here. Baal and Kees particularly know their stuff about short pips.

3) After you practice for a few months a lot of what feels unnatural now will become automatic. Don't try to rush the process though.

4) Don't worry about equipment yet, get used to this change first. Eventually you may change your inverted rubber, your blade and your pips, but best to do one thing at a time right now. 802-40 and Raystorm are similar enough that either one will work fine for this. Eventaully you may want a less spinny short pip so you can maximize it's advantages.

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-- Andrew

Spintech All Around Penhold blade
Spinlord Keiler II 1.5 black
Nittaku FastArc G1 red

729 all around blade
Tibhar Grass D-Tec S Red
Nittaku FastArc G1 black

Platin is now available for $39.95 USD from Paddle Palace: http://www.paddlepalace.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RDCPL

They seem to have gotten the Donic distributorship. I always thought Donic was one of the best values of the major brands.

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-- Andrew

Spintech All Around Penhold blade
Spinlord Keiler II 1.5 black
Nittaku FastArc G1 red

729 all around blade
Tibhar Grass D-Tec S Red
Nittaku FastArc G1 black

Andrew:

I'm currently skipping as many games as possible right now. A former national player, now a coach, trained in China, and the advice given to him during his heyday was to completely stop playing games for a while. Games tend to destroy most of the skills which are being painstakingly ingrained in training -- the mentality of a game is quite different from match practice, said his Chinese coach.

He didn't listen, played in tournaments, and was remorseful afterwards -- his skills weren't up to the standard, and it took longer to develop the skills which he wanted.

The club tables do get occupied, and being forced to write your name on the match board -- it's a little embarrassing to throw the towel in the name of skill development, when your opponent is expecting a quality game. Sometimes, I decline my turn at the match table in exchange for around 10 minutes of drilling against my supposed opponent. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The usual question? "Why?"

Regarding the Platin, it costs approximately the same here -- 36~40 US$ a sheet. The EJ in me is giddy with delight.

Kees:

I don't think your two observations are completely wrong -- I'll need a video to prove your observations though. Hehe.

You mentioned separating the training -- does this mean I should train exclusively for the BH for now, and maintain like 15% of the session time for FH drills and warm-up? Or did I get that correctly?

I just met that guy who liked 802-40 -- and he's supposedly a long-time pips player. I'm looking forward to discussing things with him, and perhaps learn from a willing partner.

Next week seems far away...I'd like to clock in more hours.

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Viscaria. H2 Neo 2.15. Tenergy 05 1.9.

This was exactly my coaches advice. Fortunately I have a regular practice partner who prefers drilling to playing games, so it's easier to work on new things with him. During a match it's too tempting to slip back into old habits that you are used to, rather than trying new things that take awhile to develop but will help you more in the long run.

Unfortunately a lot of U.S. clubs only seem to value playing games. I've noticed that mebers of some clubs seem to play a lot but improve little as they never drill but only play games, so their game stagnates. If you can find players who prefer to drill, you'll improve much more quickly.

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-- Andrew

Spintech All Around Penhold blade
Spinlord Keiler II 1.5 black
Nittaku FastArc G1 red

729 all around blade
Tibhar Grass D-Tec S Red
Nittaku FastArc G1 black