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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 09:50 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
It's becoming very common in table tennis. Kids are 'Choing' more than ever now because of the Chinese and Harimoto being huge role models. I go to clubs in Asia where there are 40 or more 9-12 yr olds choing after every point. I sometimes find it amusing and I sometimes find it annoying. It depends on what type of day I'm having. I do however try to remain objectively aware of what I'm looking at.


At a recent tournament there were some Under-11 boys, the loudest two of them former club pennant teammates of mine, and for whom I have a lot of regard, choing so madly that it sounded like toddlers having full-blown tantrums!

Shuddering to think of the cacophony when their voices break…

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 18:33 
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hangdog wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
It's becoming very common in table tennis. Kids are 'Choing' more than ever now because of the Chinese and Harimoto being huge role models. I go to clubs in Asia where there are 40 or more 9-12 yr olds choing after every point. I sometimes find it amusing and I sometimes find it annoying. It depends on what type of day I'm having. I do however try to remain objectively aware of what I'm looking at.


At a recent tournament there were some Under-11 boys, the loudest two of them former club pennant teammates of mine, and for whom I have a lot of regard, choing so madly that it sounded like toddlers having full-blown tantrums!

Shuddering to think of the cacophony when their voices break…


Does his first name start with a J? If so, he's a likeable kid and could be good one day. I've heard him being very loud before too.

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 20:10 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
Richfs wrote:
I've started to compete more recently. I'm struggling a lot with my mental game when facing certain juniors, usually between 13-16 yo.
Their technique is usually very good and they realize I'm supposed to be "worse" than them, yet I often beat them or give them a lot of trouble. This leads to some major tantrums.

Today was probably the worst I've ever faced and it put me in a bad mood the rest of the day. This kid kept complaining the whole game, choing in my face if I missed a shot, complained that I didn't know the rules because I went to get my towel at 5-5 as I was sweating everywhere and wiped the table. Fair enough, I shouldn't have done that, but most people don't care. The list goes on.
Luckily I beat him, and so did another guy from my club later on.

To be fair to him, he did apologize to me (he was told to do so by others), and realized his behaviour was unacceptable. Unfortunately this is quite a common occurrence, sometimes it makes me play worse or drains my energy so that it looks like I'm barely doing anything, funnily enough, if these kids then lose more points because of that they lose it even more mentally. But this is not how I want to deal with it, I want to be pushing myself 100% all the time and not get as affected as I do.
Either way it takes the enjoyment out of the game completely for me. I get it, they're teenagers and struggling with impulse control. For those that know what I mean, what have your experiences been and how did you deal with it?


It's becoming very common in table tennis. Kids are 'Choing' more than ever now because of the Chinese and Harimoto being huge role models. I go to clubs in Asia where there are 40 or more 9-12 yr olds choing after every point. I sometimes find it amusing and I sometimes find it annoying. It depends on what type of day I'm having. I do however try to remain objectively aware of what I'm looking at.

I think your last point is the best way to help deal with the situation. If you understand why a kid is behaving the way they do, it can help to put things into perspective for yourself. Understanding that the kids are just mimicking others and that their prefrontal lobes have yet to fully develop is a good start. It takes 25 years for the human brain to fully develop and understand the context of complicated social interactions. Add some pressure and some kids are likely to go off the rails. It generally takes a man to apologize.

Imagine if someone comes up to you on the street and starts screaming at you. You'd probably get angry too and perhaps counter attack. It could easily result in a real fight. Now imagine that you know that the person screaming at you has schizophrenia or a family member just died. Would you be more objective about that person now? Would you still counter with anger? The extra knowledge would make you more objective about their behavior and their screaming should barely upset you. Perhaps it's important to understand that kids are just kids.

I have played TT too and I know that theory goes out the window in the white-hot heat of battle. Sometimes adults need to forgive themselves as well and learn to apologize for their own behavior.


Your post is spot on Brett. I don't have much of an issue with choing in itself, even though it sometimes can get annoying. Harimoto for example doesn't cho at the opponent, while this kid was deliberately choing in my face and making comments like "how can I lose to this guy, he isn't even good".
Choing to pump yourself up is one thing, choing at someone and making comments during and after the game is crossing the line. I've even had an adult a few years older than me whisper across the table "you're so bad", then I went on to beat him 11-0 in the last set. Funnily enough, a few months later at a tournament he was very friendly and spoke to me as if nothing had happened. I know people like this don't mean these things personally, they simply can't control their emotions - and I know what this is like, I struggle with it too, but I take it out on myself instead.

The two cases I described above have however been the worst. I've played a lot of league and practice matches before, the majority of people don't act anything near like this so I guess I shouldn't be focusing on it too much.

I can understand why these people do what they do but it's still frustrating that I have to deal with it when all we really want to do is to enjoy a good game of table tennis and preferably improve our game.


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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 21:34 
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I have a lot more problems with bad attitude adults than I do kids. I prefer choing or any kind of talk to people who play in absolute serious library silence. I really hate that.

As far as not letting it bother you in competition, I think you are missing an opportunity by even thinking of opponent noise as an obstacle for you. Try thinking of it as a reflection of their inner stress.

The easiest way to win a tournament match is to destroy your opponent mentally. This can mostly happen two ways. You can break their spirit where they give up trying due to lack of belief they can win. Or, much more fun, you can put them on tilt where they lose their minds and start smashing every ball to let the anger out. If you are a pips player, as I am now, one way to do that is to get three or four nets in a set. When you hear them complain about the nets, especially if it is to spectators, you know they aren't focused. That's a good moment to say something like "I always get at least four nets every set, it's guaranteed when you switch to pips." Then aim quite low. If you can get one more net dribbler in the next two or three points most times they will go completely berserk. And that's always good fun.

Even if you don't find humor in being a jerk sometimes, I still think you should look at loud opponents as stressed, and think of ways to stress them more. Generally in competition we are meant to focus on the opponent and not ourselves. Worrying about their choing between points, which has zero relevance to your play, contradicts that.


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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 21:44 
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On the talent question, I absolutely believe there is a genetic component. Perhaps parents play ball more when their kids seem to be good at catching or throwing. Obviously coordination is learned, but that doesn't mean everyone learns it at roughly the same rate.

More interesting to me than talent is the phenomenon of anti-talent. That is when a player is still quite terrible, but thinks they are good, or sometimes, knows they stink, but think they already know everything about technique and just aren't showing their best. Anti-talent completely negates any coaching, since the player already knows whatever the coach is telling him.


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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 23:04 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
hangdog wrote:
At a recent tournament there were some Under-11 boys, the loudest two of them former club pennant teammates of mine, and for whom I have a lot of regard, choing so madly that it sounded like toddlers having full-blown tantrums!

Shuddering to think of the cacophony when their voices break…


Does his first name start with a J? If so, he's a likeable kid and could be good one day. I've heard him being very loud before too.


Yes, a great kid who's come along really quickly.

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 23:09 
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BRS wrote:
I have a lot more problems with bad attitude adults than I do kids. I prefer choing or any kind of talk to people who play in absolute serious library silence. I really hate that.

As far as not letting it bother you in competition, I think you are missing an opportunity by even thinking of opponent noise as an obstacle for you. Try thinking of it as a reflection of their inner stress.

The easiest way to win a tournament match is to destroy your opponent mentally. This can mostly happen two ways. You can break their spirit where they give up trying due to lack of belief they can win. Or, much more fun, you can put them on tilt where they lose their minds and start smashing every ball to let the anger out. If you are a pips player, as I am now, one way to do that is to get three or four nets in a set. When you hear them complain about the nets, especially if it is to spectators, you know they aren't focused. That's a good moment to say something like "I always get at least four nets every set, it's guaranteed when you switch to pips." Then aim quite low. If you can get one more net dribbler in the next two or three points most times they will go completely berserk. And that's always good fun.

Even if you don't find humor in being a jerk sometimes, I still think you should look at loud opponents as stressed, and think of ways to stress them more. Generally in competition we are meant to focus on the opponent and not ourselves. Worrying about their choing between points, which has zero relevance to your play, contradicts that.


Good point. The thing is that I don't like conflict, so trying to stress my opponent more, while it might make it more likely for me to win the game, it wouldn't feel good doing it. Strangely enough, my opponents being stressed out, stresses me out. I feel like the game goes from being a battle of skills to more of a mental battle and I don't enjoy that.. but I guess it's something I just have to accept if I want to keep competing. It's probably partly because I used to play local league games that were very relaxed and social to now competing in leagues and competitions where winning is considered much more important. They both have their pros and cons, I suppose.

I'm not sure what tactic to employ when things are going poorly. I tend to show quite negative body language and I don't think that's helping my game. I've tried choing on some points but it just doesn't feel natural to me. I do whisper a few things to myself and I think that's probably more useful to help me focus on what I actually need to do to win.


BRS wrote:

More interesting to me than talent is the phenomenon of anti-talent. That is when a player is still quite terrible, but thinks they are good, or sometimes, knows they stink, but think they already know everything about technique and just aren't showing their best. Anti-talent completely negates any coaching, since the player already knows whatever the coach is telling him.


That reminds me of the Dunning Kruger effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect) which I think is similar to what you're mentioning.


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PostPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 00:09 
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Tyler45 wrote:
I think that’s a well thought-through list. Genetics does come into play, but the very act of throwing and catching a ball with your child in the park and kicking a football back and forth when they are young is so important for hand-eye coordination. And that is the basis for all sports.

Everyone knows someone who just can’t throw a ball or catch a ball. Someone who just isn’t good at ball sports. That has nothing to do with genetics imo. It is more not having had the luck or opportunity to do most of the things in the list as a young child.


Hmmm it depends. I think there are certainly people who got unlucky with genetics and are completely uncoordinated. Some of them have disabilities but even amongst those that don't there exists a spectrum.


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PostPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 00:25 
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Richfs wrote:
BRS wrote:
I have a lot more problems with bad attitude adults than I do kids. I prefer choing or any kind of talk to people who play in absolute serious library silence. I really hate that.

As far as not letting it bother you in competition, I think you are missing an opportunity by even thinking of opponent noise as an obstacle for you. Try thinking of it as a reflection of their inner stress.

The easiest way to win a tournament match is to destroy your opponent mentally. This can mostly happen two ways. You can break their spirit where they give up trying due to lack of belief they can win. Or, much more fun, you can put them on tilt where they lose their minds and start smashing every ball to let the anger out. If you are a pips player, as I am now, one way to do that is to get three or four nets in a set. When you hear them complain about the nets, especially if it is to spectators, you know they aren't focused. That's a good moment to say something like "I always get at least four nets every set, it's guaranteed when you switch to pips." Then aim quite low. If you can get one more net dribbler in the next two or three points most times they will go completely berserk. And that's always good fun.

Even if you don't find humor in being a jerk sometimes, I still think you should look at loud opponents as stressed, and think of ways to stress them more. Generally in competition we are meant to focus on the opponent and not ourselves. Worrying about their choing between points, which has zero relevance to your play, contradicts that.


Good point. The thing is that I don't like conflict, so trying to stress my opponent more, while it might make it more likely for me to win the game, it wouldn't feel good doing it. Strangely enough, my opponents being stressed out, stresses me out. I feel like the game goes from being a battle of skills to more of a mental battle and I don't enjoy that.. but I guess it's something I just have to accept if I want to keep competing. It's probably partly because I used to play local league games that were very relaxed and social to now competing in leagues and competitions where winning is considered much more important. They both have their pros and cons, I suppose.

I'm not sure what tactic to employ when things are going poorly. I tend to show quite negative body language and I don't think that's helping my game. I've tried choing on some points but it just doesn't feel natural to me. I do whisper a few things to myself and I think that's probably more useful to help me focus on what I actually need to do to win.


BRS wrote:

More interesting to me than talent is the phenomenon of anti-talent. That is when a player is still quite terrible, but thinks they are good, or sometimes, knows they stink, but think they already know everything about technique and just aren't showing their best. Anti-talent completely negates any coaching, since the player already knows whatever the coach is telling him.


That reminds me of the Dunning Kruger effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect) which I think is similar to what you're mentioning.


Negativity is from consciously worrying too much about the result. Treat each point separately and try to play it as well as you can ignoring the overall result or score as much as possible. Let the sub conscious play the points. Just try to play some really nice shots out there and the result will take care of itself. People can try so hard they paralyse themselves with negativity and then their conscious muscles are playing the shots which leads to worse results which leads to more negativity etc.


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PostPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 09:21 
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Played for two days in a tournament in Erie, PA. Unfortunately, I didn't record videos. But here is a small recap:

1) Adding LTT100 to my pendulum serve made it a breakthrough. For the first time in my life 1800-2000 level crowd consistently misread it and popped it up, to be hammered by a LTT47 hook. Although it was not enough to win, this connection definitely worked. Now I need LTT100 for the reverse!

2) People still block me out. Something is very wrong with my forehand opening against backspin. Although I did try to spin more, it didn't work out. What I noticed is that against a very heavy push it is easy to loop heavy, as I add up the spin. But if the ball has medium backspin and I try to spin it, it just does not work. Too easy to block. Probably what happens is that autopilot in my head sees a weak push and directs my body to spin it forward no matter what. I wish I could have some offline coaching to work on this issue...

3) The performance in competition varies wildly from a game to game. One game I play insane rallies where I loop 5-7 balls in a row and win, in the next game I feel like I am in the fog and have no touch, no strokes and no footwork. Very strange.

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PostPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 10:20 
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Richfs wrote:
BRS wrote:
I have a lot more problems with bad attitude adults than I do kids. I prefer choing or any kind of talk to people who play in absolute serious library silence. I really hate that.

As far as not letting it bother you in competition, I think you are missing an opportunity by even thinking of opponent noise as an obstacle for you. Try thinking of it as a reflection of their inner stress.

The easiest way to win a tournament match is to destroy your opponent mentally. This can mostly happen two ways. You can break their spirit where they give up trying due to lack of belief they can win. Or, much more fun, you can put them on tilt where they lose their minds and start smashing every ball to let the anger out. If you are a pips player, as I am now, one way to do that is to get three or four nets in a set. When you hear them complain about the nets, especially if it is to spectators, you know they aren't focused. That's a good moment to say something like "I always get at least four nets every set, it's guaranteed when you switch to pips." Then aim quite low. If you can get one more net dribbler in the next two or three points most times they will go completely berserk. And that's always good fun.

Even if you don't find humor in being a jerk sometimes, I still think you should look at loud opponents as stressed, and think of ways to stress them more. Generally in competition we are meant to focus on the opponent and not ourselves. Worrying about their choing between points, which has zero relevance to your play, contradicts that.


Good point. The thing is that I don't like conflict, so trying to stress my opponent more, while it might make it more likely for me to win the game, it wouldn't feel good doing it. Strangely enough, my opponents being stressed out, stresses me out. I feel like the game goes from being a battle of skills to more of a mental battle and I don't enjoy that.. but I guess it's something I just have to accept if I want to keep competing. It's probably partly because I used to play local league games that were very relaxed and social to now competing in leagues and competitions where winning is considered much more important. They both have their pros and cons, I suppose.

I'm not sure what tactic to employ when things are going poorly. I tend to show quite negative body language and I don't think that's helping my game. I've tried choing on some points but it just doesn't feel natural to me. I do whisper a few things to myself and I think that's probably more useful to help me focus on what I actually need to do to win.


BRS wrote:

More interesting to me than talent is the phenomenon of anti-talent. That is when a player is still quite terrible, but thinks they are good, or sometimes, knows they stink, but think they already know everything about technique and just aren't showing their best. Anti-talent completely negates any coaching, since the player already knows whatever the coach is telling him.


That reminds me of the Dunning Kruger effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect) which I think is similar to what you're mentioning.


On a more serious and hopefully helpful note, what has helped me a ton to keep focused on useful thoughts in competition came from some videos multi-forum member zeio made where he subtitled the Chinese stars post-match interviews on Weibo. Every single time, win or lose, they always talked about their matches in terms of solving problems.

So since I can't copy their athleticism, practice discipline, or technique, I tried copying that system of thinking about a match. And I find it helps a lot. I don't get so down on myself any more, I haven't thrown a paddle in months. If I'm missing all my forehands in a match, instead of thinking, I have no forehand today, why does it have to be today at a tournament? I'm such a s*** player." now I think more like "this guy is giving me a real problem on my fh. What is he doing? How can I force the play into a different pattern?"

Sometimes it works, defined as winning the match. And lots of times it doesn't. But I feel much better both during and after the match, and I learn more from matches this way. Very rarely now do I come off the table not knowing how or why I lost, or won for that matter.


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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 08:01 
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LTT99 in action here:

https://youtu.be/zE_-dQ5hbtw?t=32

Devastating! The more TT I watch from decent angles the more Brett teachings I spot.


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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 12:11 
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PostPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 07:32 
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PTTP03 is now available on ttEDGE.com

Here's the link https://ttedge.com/videos/pttp03-playin ... -henzell-2

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PostPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 07:41 
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wilkinru wrote:
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I've thought a lot about this type of device and it theoretically makes a lot of sense.

I remember however than hangdog put a very simple box on my table which served the same purpose. I try using it and really struggled to make my serve work as required. This worried me because I have above average serves and I theoretically should be able to succeed every time if the tool is appropriate as a learning device for the average club player.

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