ITTF New proposed limitations of entries for Olympics

speedplay · **Posted:** 29 Jan 2010, 02:07

It might be that the Olympic games always have been manipulated, but that doesn't make it right to manipulate it even further.

More nations participating in the Olympic TT? Whoopie! , with a tone of sarcasm... 56 Nations participated last time, now they aim for 60. What ranking would that player have who is picked from the 60th nation? I know it is in the spirit of the Olympic games, but I for one don't like to watch tourists participate in international sporting events.

Is the ITTF or the IOC to blame? I don't know, but I think this is the wrong way to go. I don't think more nations will follow the events, cause even if the suddenly find that they have a player participating, what fun is it to watch him/her get eliminated in the first round, most likely in a humiliating fashsion?

kagin · **Posted:** 29 Jan 2010, 02:20

Smartguy wrote:

On the contrary, I insist, the issue of how many players represent a National Association at the Olympics is indeed a solely ITTF related issue. The ITTF rules support my opinion

Insist all you want; you can argue anything if you ignore simple logic. If the ittf said they wanted the team event to have 32 countries, each with 8 players of each gender, the ioc would say no, regardless of what the ittf regulations say.

The olympics is not designed as a pure sporting event or a professional competition, it's a political event. Professional competitions exist in the national/international leagues and the ittf pro tour.

Smartguy · **Joined:** 06 Dec 2008, 10:22 **Posts:** 255

brabhamista wrote:

Do you really believe that they do not issue at a minimum guidelines to any international sports bodies?

Until now none of the honourable debaters here has been able to present any evidence (document), that such "IOC rules" exist, which regulate how many TT players may represent their country at the Olympics. Currently each TT Association may sent 3 (or more?) players for the individual events. We don't really think the ITTF have been violating those "IOC rules" for decades, do we?

The ITTF rules clearly state, how this should be regulated:

Quote:

4.05.02.02 The Team Match System in team events and the system of play in both team and individual events including any qualifying competitions shall be decided by the Board of Directors, on the recommendation of the Olympic and Paralympic Commission, and all Associations shall be notified in accordance with the schedule set by the IOC.

Smartguy · **Joined:** 06 Dec 2008, 10:22 **Posts:** 255

Adham wrote:

For singles we are proposing to reduce from 3 to 2 entries per NOC.
- This will allow more NOCs to take part in the singles events at the Olympic Games, which is much desired by all NOCs. So far, since 1988, the average number of NOCs taking part in the table tennis event is around 55. We want to exceed the 60 mark.

I would recommend to read these words critically.

The ITTF rules don't limit the number of Associations participating at the Olympics. This is the whole Chapter about Olympics:

Quote:

4.05 OLYMPICS COMPETITION
4.05.01 Eligibility
4.05.01.01 To be eligible for participation in the Olympic Games a player, coach or official shall comply with the Olympic Charter as well as with the ITTF rules. In particular the above mentioned persons shall
4.05.01.01.01 be entered by their National Olympic Committee (NOC);
4.05.01.01.02 respect the spirit of fair play and non violence, and behave accordingly on the sportsfield;
4.05.01.01.03 respect and comply in all aspects with the World Anti-Doping Code;
4.05.01.01.04 not allow their person, name, picture or sports performances to be used for advertising purposes during the Olympic Games, except as permitted by the IOC Executive Board.
4.05.01.02 The entry or participation of a player in the Olympic Games shall not be conditional on any financial consideration.
4.05.01.03 Any player shall be a national of the country of the NOC which is entering him.
4.05.01.03.01 A player who is a national of 2 or more countries at the same time may represent either one of them, as he may elect.
4.05.01.03.02 After having represented one country in the Olympic Games, in continental or regional games or in world or regional championships recognised by the ITTF, a player may not represent another country unless he meets the conditions set forth in 4.3.1.3.3.
4.05.01.03.03 A player who has represented one country in the Olympic Games, in continental or regional games or in world or regional championships recognised by the ITTF and who has changed his nationality or acquired a new nationality, may participate in the Olympic Games to represent his new country provided that at least 3 years have passed since the player last represented his former country.
4.05.01.03.04 The 3-years-period mentioned in 4.3.1.3.3 may be reduced or even cancelled, with the agreement of the NOCs concerned and the ITTF Executive Committee, by the IOC Executive Board, which takes into account the circumstances of each case.
4.05.01.03.05 If an associated state, province or overseas department, a country or colony acquires independence, if a country becomes incorporated within another country by reason of a change of border, or if a new NOC is recognised by the IOC, a player may continue to represent the country to which he belongs or belonged. However, he may, if he prefers, choose to represent his country or be entered in the Olympic Games by his new NOC if one exists. This particular choice may be made only once.
4.05.01.04 All disputes relating to the determination of the country which a player may represent in the Olympic Games and in particular issue specific requirements relating to nationality, citizenship, domicile or residence of the player, including the duration of any waiting period, shall be resolved by the IOC Executive Board.
4.05.02 Events
4.05.02.01 The Olympics competition shall include at least men's singles, women's singles, men's team and women's team events.
4.05.02.02 The Team Match System in team events and the system of play in both team and individual events including any qualifying competitions shall be decided by the Board of Directors, on the recommendation of the Olympic and Paralympic Commission, and all Associations shall be notified in accordance with the schedule set by the IOC.
4.05.03 Doping Control
4.05.03.01 Doping control shall be carried out in accordance with IOC rules.

That means, they could have 60 or 160 Associations at the Olympics. The number of the participants is not limited.

A natural limitation could be the circumstance, that to many NA it simply doesn't make sense to send their relatively weak players to the Olympics.

kagin · **Posted:** 29 Jan 2010, 06:31

Smartguy wrote:

Until now none of the honourable debaters here has been able to present any evidence (document), that such "IOC rules" exist, which regulate how many TT players may represent their country at the Olympics.

Despite the fact that the participant limit really does exist and is easy to find on the ioc web site, there's no need for anyone to present it to counter your so-called argument because what you state is intrinsically invalid. The olympics is an ioc event not an ittf event and the ioc can reject anything the ittf puts forth. You may as well quote the Smartguy Regulations that say everyone has to play while wearing a spiderman mask.

Smartguy · **Joined:** 06 Dec 2008, 10:22 **Posts:** 255

kagin wrote:

The olympics is an ioc event not an ittf event and the ioc can reject anything the ittf puts forth.

The Olympics is both ITTF and IOC event, it is also an event of all the International Federations participating.

Is there a IOS rule regulating the number of TT players per country or the number of countries? We have not seen any evidence, that such a thing exists. Even Adham didn't say that.

However he did say that:

"I want to discuss my desires for changes very soon first internally in the ITTF and then with the IOC. An individual event with a maximum of two players by country. Therewith we can hinder that a country like China makes the clean sweep."

(http://www.ittf.com/_front_page/ittf_fu ... p?ID=16257)

speedplay · **Posted:** 29 Jan 2010, 08:12

Talk about makins something easy very hard. Obviously both the IOC and the ITTF decides it. If they don't agree, then TT will not be played in the Olympic games, it's that easy. ITTF might decide that they want 5 participants from each country, IOC says no way Jos'e, so ITTF decides that then no TT will be played at the Olympic games. Not to hard to understand, is it? ITTF rules over Table Tennis and IOC rules over the Olympic games.

haggisv · **Posted:** 29 Jan 2010, 08:50

We seem to have gone into a deep discussion about manipulation of the rules and the motivation behind the proposal... but how about we put all that aside, and discuss whether or not this change will be beneficial for our sport? Isn't that what's really important here?

Smartguy · **Joined:** 06 Dec 2008, 10:22 **Posts:** 255

speedplay wrote:

Obviously both the IOC and the ITTF decides it. If they don't agree, then TT will not be played in the Olympic games, it's that easy. ITTF might decide that they want 5 participants from each country, IOC says no way Jos'e, ...

What you have described here, is hypothetically one possible way the things might work. It may look obvious to you, it's a matter of opinion.

However, both the ITTF and the IOC work according to rules. Does an IOC rule exist, which says, the IOC determines the number of participants in TT Olympic events? The proponents of this thesis failed to present any evidence of existence of such a rule. They believe it, no problem, it is their right.

On the other hand we have Adham's words:

"I want to discuss my desires for changes very soon first internally in the ITTF and then with the IOC. An individual event with a maximum of two players by country. Therewith we can hinder that a country like China makes the clean sweep."

His desires... discuss first internally in the ITTF... etc.

brabhamista · **Posted:** 29 Jan 2010, 08:58

Smartguy wrote:

The number of the participants is not limited.

Are you really sure?

You go on about facts being the only important thing and anything else is nonsense all the time. Yet you can not be arsed to check the IOC website recommended by Kagin for the facts of this matter.

Personally I can not stand to see a helpless guy stumbling in the dark, so here are the facts you try so hard not to see, Smartguy:

Quote:

Maximum numbers
The maximum number of players who can take part in the Olympic Games table tennis events are 86 men and 86 women – with not more than three men and three women from each National Olympic Committee (NOC). Given that China normally has five or more players ranked in the world’s top 20, this means competition for a place on the national team can be fierce!

That is cut directly from the IOC website. There is no need to read it critically as it is quite clear what it says.

Smartguy · **Joined:** 06 Dec 2008, 10:22 **Posts:** 255

haggisv wrote:

We seem to have gone into a deep discussion about manipulation of the rules and the motivation behind the proposal... but how about we put all that aside, and discuss whether or not this change will be beneficial for our sport? Isn't that what's really important here?

Couldn't we do both?

One certain consequence of the proposal in question would be inflation of the Olympic bronze. I mean, if the best 3 or even more players are Chinese. It wouldn't be the same bronze. And in times of internet the whole TT World would know it. How can such a thing be beneficial.

brabhamista · **Posted:** 29 Jan 2010, 09:15

haggisv wrote:

We seem to have gone into a deep discussion about manipulation of the rules and the motivation behind the proposal... but how about we put all that aside, and discuss whether or not this change will be beneficial for our sport? Isn't that what's really important here?

To really see how this could affect table tennis it would be useful to see what has happened to taekwondo, for example. They are down to one participant per country so how has that affected their sport, if at all? To know would be very useful to deduce a probable scenario for our own sport.

Personally, I can not see a great benefit. On the other hand I see no endless pit of darkness either. It will be business as usual at the next Olympics either way.

Smartguy · **Joined:** 06 Dec 2008, 10:22 **Posts:** 255

brabhamista wrote:

Quote:

Maximum numbers
The maximum number of players who can take part in the Olympic Games table tennis events are 86 men and 86 women – with not more than three men and three women from each National Olympic Committee (NOC). Given that China normally has five or more players ranked in the world’s top 20, this means competition for a place on the national team can be fierce!

That is cut directly from the IOC website. There is no need to read it critically as it is quite clear what it says.

Your quotation doesn't look like a rule, it looks like a part of an article, where the current situation is described. I would greatly appreciate your giving the direct link to the text, so as we could read the whole thing.

You obviously forgot to mention, that my words "The number of the participants is not limited"
were written in context of and about the ITTF rule "4.05 OLYMPICS COMPETITION". Again, the number of the participants is not limited there.

We haven't seen yet any evidence of existence of an IOC rule about limits on TT participants.

Smartguy · **Joined:** 06 Dec 2008, 10:22 **Posts:** 255

brabhamista wrote:

Personally, I can not see a great benefit.

What a nice feeling to agree with brabhamista on something.

speedplay · **Posted:** 29 Jan 2010, 09:35

brabhamista wrote:

haggisv wrote:

We seem to have gone into a deep discussion about manipulation of the rules and the motivation behind the proposal... but how about we put all that aside, and discuss whether or not this change will be beneficial for our sport? Isn't that what's really important here?

To really see how this could affect table tennis it would be useful to see what has happened to taekwondo, for example. They are down to one participant per country so how has that affected their sport, if at all? To know would be very useful to deduce a probable scenario for our own sport.

Personally, I can not see a great benefit. On the other hand I see no endless pit of darkness either. It will be business as usual at the next Olympics either way.

I might be wrong here, but is that really true? I thought taekwondo was divided into different weight classes, just like Olympic wrestling. So even if a country is only allowed to send one participant for each weight class, they can still send more then one participant for the teakwondo event, right?

Also, why should we look at Taekwondo as an example, why not look at swimming instead? 3 participant/country and with multiple events to enter for each and every one of them. Giving TT the same opportunity, we would have left hand, right hand, J-pen, C-pen, Handshake, best of 3/5/7 and set lengths would vary from first to 7/11/14/17/21, all fh and all bh events... Now, I wouldn't mind that, the best players would still be there, but I do think this ould only mean even more golds to China.

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ITTF New proposed limitations of entries for Olympics

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