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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2013, 01:47 
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Entered a tournament last weekend where, with a lp/sp setup, I beat a player 300 points above me. It came down to the last match of the day and my next opponent (also with a rating about 300 points above me) refused to play me. There was no issue of illness, accident, etc.....in fact, he claimed being tired and stayed around joking with his colleagues. I felt I should be handed a "win" but the tournament director refused. Somewhat irate because at nearly 80 years old, having travelled 4 hours to the venue, I was unimpressed by someone half my age being "tired". It sounded as if he didn't want to face my long pips and suffer the same fate as his friend (and the ratings deduction).

I sent an email to the USATT, quoting the ITTF regulations regarding "suspension" (not allowed due to exhaustion and a win would be recorded) but Fong responded saying that if no point had been initiated, then it would be considered a "default" and it would not affect either player's ratings.

My immediate response was that this seemed like a huge loophole. In other words, a player could default if he was faced with an opponent who was dangerous and substantial points below him without any penalty. At round robins, furthermore, it would pay to place these at the end of the round robin so you could default at your convenience.

Does anyone know if this ratings computation in tournaments is the same in Europe, Asia, and other countries? Am curious enough to raise it with Mike Babuin at the USATT.


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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2013, 02:32 
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Here in Australia (Victoria :lol: ) We have the following rule

Forfeits and No Shows

Forfeits at tournaments will be deemed losses against the forfeiter, except where an athlete
withdraws before the start of an event and notifies the organizing committee in advance, or
formal medical evidence is provided to the TTV Points Subcommittee after the tournament.
Recipients of forfeits (i.e. the winner) are not awarded points for winning, unless play is
actually begun in the match (in which case it is not actually a forfeit). Only the forfeit in the
least important event (according to weightings) of multiple forfeits at one tournament will be
penalised. Forfeits in pennant are not penalised.

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2013, 02:38 
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epictetus wrote:
Entered a tournament last weekend where, with a lp/sp setup, I beat a player 300 points above me. It came down to the last match of the day and my next opponent (also with a rating about 300 points above me) refused to play me. There was no issue of illness, accident, etc.....in fact, he claimed being tired and stayed around joking with his colleagues. I felt I should be handed a "win" but the tournament director refused.


Was this the final? You telling me no winner for the event was awarded?? That just doesn't make sense.

I read this article the other day about the harm ratings are doing and am beginning to see examples of it more & more.

http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/65

I posted about a story the other day where someone cheated by marking themselves as the winner (being raited higher) vs the club mate of mine. Just pathetic.

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2013, 02:39 
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Txs, Foam. Much more logical as the forfeiter at least would be penalized.


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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2013, 02:43 
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suds, not a final. Nevertheless, the incentive to default on lower rated, dangerous opponents without any penalty remains.


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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2013, 04:53 
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Just received this reply from Fong Hsu at the USATT. It is self explanatory:

"Hi Richard,

Unfortunately, as a policy from the ratings perspective, we only count ratings when points have been played and a match is “official”. While what your opponent has done is frowned upon and not condoned, it is unfortunately a common occurrence at many tournaments. It is also something that many tournament directors and USATT has been trying to combat, since this kind of behavior reflects badly on tournaments, and deprives their opponents of matches that they have paid for. As a tournament director myself for many years, I have been in your position many times, especially in RR events where the outcome is already decided before the final A-B match.

However, despite my feelings on the matter, the rules on what constitutes an official match for ratings purposes is clear. If the match has not officially started (ie. a point has been played), then it is not to be counted for ratings. I encourage, however, to make your feelings known to Mike Babuin and the appropriate USATT committees to see if there is an alternative to the current rule. Thanks!

Fong"


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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2013, 09:39 
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you must at least get it counted as a win (default win) maybe not the ratings ?
I would have gone to the table waited then served even if no opposition and write down 1-0 then game stopped then write 11-0,11-0,11-0
I actually don't mind if players pull out of one event because they have another semi or final they want to concentrate on
but there is no way someone should be able to continue in a round robin or group play if they don't play the matches scheduled
i.e if you default a game because you want to come 2nd in your group to avoid a certain player or are scared of loosing ratings then the rules should say you are can no longer continue , so if you default 1 then you can't play anymore in that section

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2013, 10:29 
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Maybe there would be some changes or amendments in the rules to avoid "chickening out".

I see this as the only way.

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2013, 22:26 
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I wrote to the USATT Board with the following exchange of emails:

To the Board of the USATT

Gentlemen:

Last weekend, I played in a sanctioned USATT tournament in Roanoke, VA where I had just finished beating a player rated 300 points higher than me. The last match was against a similar rated player who then declared that he was too tired to play me. I believed that a "win" would be recorded for me but the tournament director judged that since no match had been played, my opponent had "retired" and neither a win or a loss would be recorded. Since this player continued to remain at the venue without any problems of exhaustion (he mentioned to another player that he didn't want to play against long pips with an opponent rated much less than him), I sent an email to the tournament director quoting ITTF rules regarding "suspension" with a copy to the USATT.

Fong Hsu of the USATT was kind enough to clarify that in the USATT (contrary to ITTF regs) a ratings change is not recorded if a player has not played a point, i.e. "defaulted". I pointed out that this is an incredible loophole whereby players can "default" when faced with a dangerous, lower-rated player than themselves. In fact, in a round robin, it would be a tactical advantage to play lower rated players at the end of the round robin and then just default any opponent who is "dangerous".

Fong Hsu then replied that this has been a long-standing problem at USATT tournaments but the USATT has not been able to address it. From many emails responding to this case from Asia and Europe (all irate at the unjust USATT ratings policy), may I suggest that the Board consider either:

1) the defaulting player will lose against his opponent but the "winner" will not gain ratings points for the default (Australia employs this approach and it reduces the incentive to "game" the system by defaulting against lower rated players); or

2) the defaulting player loses against the opponent and the winner gains ratings points (New Zealand suggests this approach as they feel that a phantom game was played in which the non-defaulter served once to an empty table and then recorded 11-0,11-0, 11-0). 

It is patently unfair for U.S. players to play and pay for a USATT tournament and then find that higher rated players refuse to play against them. In my case, there is some irony: I am almost 80 years old, I travelled 4 hours to Roanoke, paid $50, to find an opponent half my age claiming that he was "tired" and refused to play me (without any penalty). To say that I am irate is mildly put; to say that other countries have a logical method of resolving this problem clearly calls for your action. 

Please address this problem as soon as possible as it violates equal and fair rules for all players. 

Richard Unanue, Asheville Table Tennis Club


From a Member of the USATT Board

Richard,

This has been an issue in US tournaments for decades and players complain about it often. Players who default do receive a penalty: they lose the match and receive 0 match points toward advancing. Personally i wouldn't mind if players also lost rating points for defaulting, but this sentiment is not shared by every player. Even some players who never default prefer it the way it is today.

There are actual reasons why the system is the way it is. That doesn't mean it can't change, but since you're a new tournament player i would suggest that you try to understand the opposing view - not of cowards who are afraid to play you, but of honest players who prefer the current system.

Also, there are ways that a tournament director can prevent these kinds of defaults. Regardless of whether there's a penalty or not, the ideal situation is that nobody defaults and nobody is penalized.


Responding to the Member of the USATT Board

Thank you for your prompt reply.

As in the case of all social issues, e.g. segregation, etc., the fact that the unjust rules have existed for decades just means that leadership is required to change them. Honest persons exist on both sides of any issue but that is the reason for judges or Boards to weigh arguments. 

 I cannot think--nor have you explained--of any rationale for a defaulting player not to lose points for his actions. There is a vast difference in taking the default route when (1) you are about to lose points or (2)  just a "loss" and 0 points deducted. I can well understand the motivation of high rated players to "game" the system to maintain their rating but this is neither fair nor supportive of the sport's advancement. 

From the internet forum comments, other countries and players are perplexed by this USATT loophole. If other countries and regions have resolved the problem, why are we lagging?

As to my being new to tournaments, I am guilty as charged. In my defense, may I suggest you reread Christian Andersen's story about the "Emperor's New Clothes".

Finally and contrary to your comment, tournament directors may be equally motivated to support this venal state of USATT affairs. In my case, the tournament director and my opponent were colleagues, fellow coaches and my opponent's university team comprised the bulk of the tournament players. Why would there be any possible incentive to deduct rating points from his friend and source of tournament income?

The issue is clear: what penalty should be exacted against a defaulting player who is neither sick, has suffered an accident, nor has any medical excuse for not fulfilling his tournament responsibility to play? Under the present system, the "penalty" is toothless and serves only a vested set of interests. I have recommended two alternative modifications; with the Board's vast experience, I am sure it can creatively imagine others. It just requires courage.


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2013, 00:50 
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The problem with stting some rules against this is that often, it involves subjective judgement, which of course can be twisted, abuse, or otherwise misused.

Your case sounds pretty obvious as your opponent publicly effectively said "Heck No I dont wanna play vs an 300 point lower rated pips player" refusing to playing you even though he was was likely fit enough for a match.

What if we make penalties for this? The the ones penalized will likely not want to play in touneys and USATT has enough problems attracting and retaining tourney players. Some of these players only play one or two toruneys a year so anyu penalty will not really do much to them but piss them off. If we had unlimited players knocking on the door we could do stuff like that easy and it would be effective.

There is a way to cheat practically any rating system. here in Korea, we have divisions, no numerical point ratings. div 5 city would be USATT 1100-1300, div 4 1300-1600, Div 3 1600-1900 Div 2 1900 to 2100, Div 1 2100 to 2300, Div 0 2300-2400, Div MINUS 1 2400-2500. Coaches place thier players in divisions and have incentives to keep them a div or two lower than their true skill. this results in a really wide range of skill level in each division that give zero chance for a 1900 level player who should be a top player to win, but there are a dozen 2200+ ringers hanging around that division. (They mostly wear orange shirts in my city from a certain club ***)

Regardless of what country we all play in, there are either divisions or rating categories to give more players a chance to compete on more equal (but not totally equal) footing and a chance to win. if there was only the Open division, only the top players would have a chance and it would be one and done for everyone else, no incentive to compete or show up. That is why each of our countries accross the TT world have different divisions or rating categories and different ways to classify each player. Since it is totally possible to manipulate ones results in the losing direction at will, no system is perfect at properly classifying anyone, also players can rapidly grow or fluxuate in skill even within the day or by opponent.

What make my blood boil over here is that I should be one of the top of the middle pack in my division 2 city. I can advance out of a group as number one seed, then run into a player who is easily 200-300 USATT rating points of skill better (clearly ONE level better) but is in my divsion and I have to play the match of my life to advance. National Open tourneys here are even worse as sometimes there are hundreds of players in your division. div 4 national is hte worst. You should be 1600-1900 to play that division, but out of a 300-400 player field, there are 20 players above 2250 USATT level in that division who should really be Div 2 players. Complain all you want, there are there to stay.

In USA, players like you who are a victim to what you described totally demotivates players in your situation and many leave the sport.

There is no real easy solution that keeps everyone playing, unless there are gazillions of players in our USATT, but that is not happening ATM.

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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2013, 04:20 
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I have been in USATT "giant round robin" tournaments where the higher rated player defaulted against me in the middle of the round to avoid a possible big ratings hit, but played all the other matches.

First of all, this is unsportsmanlike.

Secondly, if they default a match and want to continue in the tournament, that default should count as a loss in the tournament AND in the ratings.

This seems a no-brainer and the USATT is wrong to allow players to "game" the system.

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