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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2018, 08:01 
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NextLevel wrote:

The other thing is to get multiball or a good blocker and practice transition without moving.get a ball yo your backhand and to your forehand that you don't have to move to and just play the shots.


This is what I ended up doing this weekend. Doing spiny but slower strokes I would put the ball to one location and have the blocker block the ball back to me within a range that I did not need to move a whole lot. It's pretty random but still I had to read. My legs are pretty sore today after a couple of days of this practice! Wow.

I was able to hit 5-10 in a row which seemed like a good start. I did notice that I went for the forehand too often sometimes and could then not recover for the next shot. I think this is in part what BRS meant about not being a good enough athlete. Being late for a shot makes you hopelessly late for the next.

NL is right about winning the point outright does remove a lot of these issues but I've noticed I need time to setup for that winning shot. It's the ones who do not give me as much time to setup are where this practice will have the most value. I'm not expecting results for a couple of months on this.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 13:17 
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I feel like the key to high quality looping of junk serves is to use the body as much as possible, as banal as it sounds. When the ball is half-long and I am not 100% about the spin, I tend to use the arm too much to just guide the ball, on both BH and FH. Nowadays I try to force myself to not hesitate: no matter how awkward it feels, I have to involve the body with the fullest motion possible. If it is forehand, I have to make a massive turn of my shoulders; if it is backhand, I have to take a bow. Otherwise my opponents will outplay me in the ping-pong rally afterwards.

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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 20:20 
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fastmover wrote:
I feel like the key to high quality looping of junk serves is to use the body as much as possible, as banal as it sounds. When the ball is half-long and I am not 100% about the spin, I tend to use the arm too much to just guide the ball, on both BH and FH. Nowadays I try to force myself to not hesitate: no matter how awkward it feels, I have to involve the body with the fullest motion possible. If it is forehand, I have to make a massive turn of my shoulders; if it is backhand, I have to take a bow. Otherwise my opponents will outplay me in the ping-pong rally afterwards.


Maybe you need to to revisit the concept of thick and thin brushing?

Not sure what you mean by guide the ball. It's very rare for me as a player to guide the ball and it is probably a deliberate attempt to play junk or a bailout play on a lousy point where I don't think I can get into position to play s high racket head speed touch.

On over 90% of my strokes if the ball comes long and almost all my backhand strokes regardless, I am trying to use fast racket head speed to create a ball trajectory. The main exception is the forehand flick and that is why I largely suck at it because I can't control it with spin.

On all other strokes, I approach the ball, assess the spin on it and try to decide what kind of trajectory I am trying to create on the ball by applying spin to it. This almost always requires high racket head speed so the ball is never "guided" unless the ball itself has heavy spin that I am mostly trying to borrow. But even in those cases I tend to hit the ball.

In the cases I feel I can apply spin, the focus is on how thick or thin the contact should be to create the desired return trajectory. But I never feel I am "guiding" the ball, I always feel I am playing a stroke that if the opponent doesn't deal with It, they are in danger. Rollers or balls that are well below the net off the side of the table are the exception but anything I am looping is fast rackethead speed, the rest is thin or thick contact.

On thin contact strokes, You need fast racket head speed. If that is what you mean by using the whole body, good. But If you mean that on serve return that your loop should be the same size as a loop you play against a regular topspin or backspin ball, you are wrong. Returns of serves use strokes that are played relatively close to the table and large strokes tend to go long if you don't calibrate the amount of spin to create the desired return correctly.

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 01:51 
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I wish I could post a video, but I can't make them public anymore :( I sent them to Brett, let's see what he says.

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 02:14 
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fastmover wrote:
I wish I could post a video, but I can't make them public anymore :( I sent them to Brett, let's see what he says.


Why cant you make them public?


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 02:20 
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wilkinru wrote:
fastmover wrote:
I wish I could post a video, but I can't make them public anymore :( I sent them to Brett, let's see what he says.


Why cant you make them public?


I practice mostly in a university gym, starting last semester the administration made massive changes to the rules. Now they forbid all filming in the building, unless you have an official permission. They allowed me to film but stressed to not make the videos public. I don't know why they did. I can post videos from another gym, but I can only play there once a week.

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 04:05 
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fastmover wrote:
wilkinru wrote:
fastmover wrote:
I wish I could post a video, but I can't make them public anymore :( I sent them to Brett, let's see what he says.


Why cant you make them public?


I practice mostly in a university gym, starting last semester the administration made massive changes to the rules. Now they forbid all filming in the building, unless you have an official permission. They allowed me to film but stressed to not make the videos public. I don't know why they did. I can post videos from another gym, but I can only play there once a week.


Sounds like a lot of the recent child molestation/abuse stuff has led to major changes in university sports administration handling of these issues though I am not sure what or how.

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2018, 14:21 
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I have been having some lessons with Brett. One thing that came up that is not yet mentioned in Ttedge yet is the reason for the start position in the topspin backhand against topspin and backspin. The bat should be parallel to the table at the end of the backswing. He even wanted me to have the edge of the bat closest to my chest to be up a bit so he could see more of the black rubber.
Now the reason he gave was to have stability in the starting position of the backhand stroke and just vary the forward bend receiving backspin verse topspin. This was new to me but makes a lot of sense,


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2018, 15:34 
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maurice101 wrote:
I have been having some lessons with Brett. One thing that came up that is not yet mentioned in Ttedge yet is the reason for the start position in the topspin backhand against topspin and backspin. The bat should be parallel to the table at the end of the backswing. He even wanted me to have the edge of the bat closest to my chest to be up a bit so he could see more of the black rubber.
Now the reason he gave was to have stability in the starting position of the backhand stroke and just vary the forward bend receiving backspin verse topspin. This was new to me but makes a lot of sense,


I've seen him do this, and I've seen him coach someone to do this, and I've copied it and it works, but I keep forgetting to do it these days. I don't generally try to attack strong backspin on the backhand any more (failed too many times :lol: ) unless it's really high and short.

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2018, 01:14 
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maurice101 wrote:
I have been having some lessons with Brett. One thing that came up that is not yet mentioned in Ttedge yet is the reason for the start position in the topspin backhand against topspin and backspin. The bat should be parallel to the table at the end of the backswing. He even wanted me to have the edge of the bat closest to my chest to be up a bit so he could see more of the black rubber.
Now the reason he gave was to have stability in the starting position of the backhand stroke and just vary the forward bend receiving backspin verse topspin. This was new to me but makes a lot of sense,



I see the pros and they seem to close the paddle angle, open it up a little and then close it again during that stroke. I would shank them so many times off the edge or get crazy spin right into the net.

I'm having more success being more perpendicular to the table on this shot (end of the paddle almost pointing straight down). I tend to get more meat on the ball and its MUCH easier to lift if I have less closed angle on the start of the back swing. As I come up I'll close the paddle and continue with the stroke. With this technique I feel I can use more of my body into the stroke since the contact is more reliable. Maybe as I improve I can start closing the paddle.

Maybe I'll make a video tonight and maybe Brett will return to tell me why it's wrong :)


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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2018, 02:18 
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Your swing trajectory is more important than such details as how your paddle starts and closes. Very often my paddle looks more closed or open than I thought it was when I made the shot. If you bend downwards or take a backswing, your paddle angle can change relative to the ground. So don't get to caught up in your angle relative to the ground for table just think about where you intend to contact the ball and the path you want to swing through and 99% of the details take care of themselves.

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2018, 13:54 
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I had another lesson today. The plastic ball has led to the Chinese using more body behind the strokes to increase power. Brett really stressed the importance of a stable start position for the backhand with closed racket angle. All top players use a closed racket angle. He wanted my arm to be more long more like a J. In my old stroke it is all over the place. I imagine next level you have a good stable start position. I started to get it when I realized that coming out of the bow down position happens first before the upswing. At first everything went into the net. So a little lag to support the arm and this changes the racket angle naturally. He said you really need to trust your rubber as it is so closed at the start. He showed me Ma Long . Actually everything Brett suggests he can show you a video to support his view. Now thousands of strokes to get this !to my body memory.


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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2018, 23:07 
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maurice101 wrote:
I had another lesson today. The plastic ball has led to the Chinese using more body behind the strokes to increase power. Brett really stressed the importance of a stable start position for the backhand with closed racket angle. All top players use a closed racket angle. He wanted my arm to be more long more like a J. In my old stroke it is all over the place. I imagine next level you have a good stable start position. I started to get it when I realized that coming out of the bow down position happens first before the upswing. At first everything went into the net. So a little lag to support the arm and this changes the racket angle naturally. He said you really need to trust your rubber as it is so closed at the start. He showed me Ma Long . Actually everything Brett suggests he can show you a video to support his view. Now thousands of strokes to get this !to my body memory.


Yes, I have a stable starting position. I also try to fix a lot of backhand topspins from people who complain about this or that about their stroke, including people who have extremely impressive motions.

The biggest problem many people at the amateur levels have with the backhand topspin is missing the ball entirely under pressure. A lot of it comes from the closed angle philosophy because it often obscures what is important. The racket is going to hit the ball during the stroke so it is going to open up. If it stays closed you will racket edge the ball under pressure, even if you hit 1000s of backhands.

So I try to get people focused on the importance of the stroke being circular in some way to add spin. Just swing with a curved/turning motion and hit the ball - close/open your racket more and more until the ball starts landing on the table at your preferred speed of swinging. As you swing faster, you may need to contact the ball at a higher point on it and with a more horizontal swing that starts higher and that will fix the racket angle. Find your preferred contact point through practice.

What do I mean by turning motion? The racket has a start and finish position. To get from the start to the finish, it has to turn. Swing through that path. Adjust the stroke until it works.

Maybe I am making it sound simpler than it is. But to me it really is that simple. And it is a good enough topspin for most players. May not be Ma Long's topspin. But I think if you understand what I am saying you will see that Ma Long is just one example of many strokes that work with this approach. But the main thing is that it allows you to hit the ball consistently. If you are doing that with your current approach, by all means stick with it. Because the issue most people have on the backhand is not how to swing well in practice, but how to avoid missing balls under pressure in a match.

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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 22:14 
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AT the B75 camp one of the coaches, Istvan Moldovan, told me I was turning my hips into the FH after the ball was gone, ie arm is leading hips are following. So it added nothing to power or consistency, but at least reset me square to the table for the next stroke. Today I was watching video of a club match and saw exactly what he meant. So I made a very short clip.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGt8UCU4pJo&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Frame by frame at 60fps the error in the sequence is super clear. I think I misunderstood something Brett told me, or I'm applying it wrong. He said the first thing you have to do for a FH is turn your shoulders. I'm doing the whole stroke with shoulder rotation. It makes some nice shots sometimes, like this one was nice, even as jammed and wrong as it was. But it makes it very hard for me to shorten the stroke when I need to, and plays holy hell with my recovery. I'll be trying to change this timing to hips-first-then-shoulders. But since I've hit approximately 2,000,000 FHs this way, I'm probably stuck with it forever.


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 22:22 
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BRS wrote:
AT the B75 camp one of the coaches, Istvan Moldovan, told me I was turning my hips into the FH after the ball was gone, ie arm is leading hips are following. So it added nothing to power or consistency, but at least reset me square to the table for the next stroke. Today I was watching video of a club match and saw exactly what he meant. So I made a very short clip.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGt8UCU4pJo&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Frame by frame at 60fps the error in the sequence is super clear. I think I misunderstood something Brett told me, or I'm applying it wrong. He said the first thing you have to do for a FH is turn your shoulders. I'm doing the whole stroke with shoulder rotation. It makes some nice shots sometimes, like this one was nice, even as jammed and wrong as it was. But it makes it very hard for me to shorten the stroke when I need to, and plays holy hell with my recovery. I'll be trying to change this timing to hips-first-then-shoulders. But since I've hit approximately 2,000,000 FHs this way, I'm probably stuck with it forever.



What you find is that advanced players play all kinds of shots including the one you played. They have the ideal activation sequence in mind but can play shorter sequences which are not as good when under pressure. That said, a lot of what you are looking for has to come from your footwork and core. It's not impossible to add but it take a time and an acceptance that initially you have to back off the table a bit to give yourself time to see the ball.

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