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PostPosted: 06 May 2018, 05:29 
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In the video it seems that you are trying to play all shots from the same position, and if it goes to your elbow you lean to the side. For example, look at the ball at 0:11. If you have no time to take a step (like against fast topspin), it is OK to lean, but a backspin ball is slower so it is better to take a step to the side. And if you are off balance, it is hard to deliver a powerful action with the body required to attack a good push. Maybe it is better to simplify the feed and play one forehand, then one to the middle, so that you will get the sense of how to adjust to the middle ball.


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PostPosted: 06 May 2018, 05:34 
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Your wristy backhand looks really cool though.


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PostPosted: 06 May 2018, 09:39 
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Did you do something to change your grip? Every one of those backspin balls you hit with a pretty closed paddle on the forehand. If I had to play for my life I'd give you backspin to your forehand in hopes you will dump them into the net.

Accidental grip changes can cause pure chaos in someone's game.


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PostPosted: 06 May 2018, 10:23 
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I am assuming your practice partner is not putting on very heavy backspin for my comments below.
I feel on your forehand against backspin you do not get low enough with full rotation with forward lean. When I had a lesson with Brett on this stroke he told me to focus on the back of my neck facing upward and to start with a full rotation. If you get lower with full rotation I think you can finish more in front of your head at the end of the stoke instead of your finish position much higher than your head. So you can go more forward in the stroke. I think this should lead to a more consistent forehand.
In the backhand I really like your forward lean and unwind a lot. Again you finish with your bat above your head. Brett really stressed starting the backhand with a closed bat angle parallel or even down with the table. He said all top pros do this. He also wanted me to have a lower straighter arm at the start of the backswing whip pattern. So the bat starts a lot lower. Check out ma longs backhand against backspin. If you start to do this closed bat angle you might find you finish the stroke at eye level and I feel you will have a lot more spin, pace and consistency. A very high finish position makes recovery longer too.
I hope these things are helpful based on my lessons with Brett a few months ago.


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PostPosted: 06 May 2018, 22:03 
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wilkinru wrote:
Did you do something to change your grip? Every one of those backspin balls you hit with a pretty closed paddle on the forehand. If I had to play for my life I'd give you backspin to your forehand in hopes you will dump them into the net.

Accidental grip changes can cause pure chaos in someone's game.


Haven't changed my grip but I am experimenting a bit with trying too loop backspin with a more closed bat angle and more forward swing-this inevitably leads to more balls in the net but that may be a good trade off as I don't face as heavy backspin balls from my opponents as from my trainer and far more common mistake of mine is overestimating backspin on the ball, swinging too much upward and overshooting the table

maurice101 wrote:
I am assuming your practice partner is not putting on very heavy backspin for my comments below.
I feel on your forehand against backspin you do not get low enough with full rotation with forward lean. When I had a lesson with Brett on this stroke he told me to focus on the back of my neck facing upward and to start with a full rotation. If you get lower with full rotation I think you can finish more in front of your head at the end of the stoke instead of your finish position much higher than your head. So you can go more forward in the stroke. I think this should lead to a more consistent forehand.
In the backhand I really like your forward lean and unwind a lot. Again you finish with your bat above your head. Brett really stressed starting the backhand with a closed bat angle parallel or even down with the table. He said all top pros do this. He also wanted me to have a lower straighter arm at the start of the backswing whip pattern. So the bat starts a lot lower. Check out ma longs backhand against backspin. If you start to do this closed bat angle you might find you finish the stroke at eye level and I feel you will have a lot more spin, pace and consistency. A very high finish position makes recovery longer too.
I hope these things are helpful based on my lessons with Brett a few months ago.


Some great points, I really like "back of the neck facing upward" cue, really helpful and will try incorporating it when preparing for backspin.

Closed, parallel to table bat angle at backhand is new to me, I see it clearly at Brett's and Ma Long backswing but not sure what is the purpose and logic behind it?
I was actually going the other way and trying to open my bat more during the whole of the swing, trying to expose more of the bat surface to the ball ("offering full face of the bat" concept) and hoping that it would lead to less whiffed balls.

Also, I guess this concept applies only at looping topspin or no spin? In LTT 73 "Backhand helper", mentioned cue was tip of the bat facing towards floor.

Thank you for all the help guys, I will be back with more footage in couple of hours.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2018, 01:05 
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Play with less spin and use your forward stroke instead of your upward stroke. If opponents are beating you with heavy spin that you gave them, that they could not make themselves, just stop giving them the spin.

I didn't watch the video, so maybe a worthless comment, but I found your saying "I only have two swings, straight upward or very hard forward" to sound really bad for your play. You have to be able to adjust to every gradation of height, speed and spin of an incoming ball. Two choices is not enough.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2018, 01:15 
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BRS wrote:
Play with less spin and use your forward stroke instead of your upward stroke. If opponents are beating you with heavy spin that you gave them, that they could not make themselves, just stop giving them the spin.

I didn't watch the video, so maybe a worthless comment, but I found your saying "I only have two swings, straight upward or very hard forward" to sound really bad for your play. You have to be able to adjust to every gradation of height, speed and spin of an incoming ball. Two choices is not enough.


I 100% agree.

When I used to train, my philosophy was avoid trying to practice playing the same shot every single time. I wanted to get the basic stroke technique but I tried to see what it would take to do what I imagined I wanted the ball to do. It would involve a lot of missing and testing but trying to play just two kinds of shots is not right. The exception is when I can make 1 or both types of shots with 100% consistency. The key was to mostly keep the technique the same while changing the contact point and swing trajectory.

I used to have wrist only shots, elbow only shots, wrist and elbow shots (in my head - the actual shots all used more hip than I suspected). For me, the key to improved consistency is to practice spinning the ball as short as possible. Trying to hit the ball deep is a losing proposition unless the ball is above net height and you have line of sight to the table. Of course if you are a pro player and can practice forever, do whatever you like.

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PostPosted: 07 May 2018, 06:20 
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Quote:
Closed, parallel to table bat angle at backhand is new to me,


I asked Brett about this factor and I cant remember his exact reason but he just told me all top 20 players do this. We trained and each backhand stroke he would provide feedback if he could see the red rubber. He showed video of this fact on his phone with a top pro. I think one reason is to do with the forward bend before whip. Your bat closes naturally allowing a more forward swing. And in addition he did say is that he wanted the same closed start position in the backhand for all backhand topspin strokes (against backspin and topspin). If you start with differing angles of your bat you will naturally be inconsistent. He really stressed to have the same start position of bat angle closed to develop consistency. I think all this allows much more spin, speed and dip as you come over the ball. Henzel in his backhand video also wanted a closed bat and to trust the rubber to grip. Of course with topspin against backspin you bend more in legs and forward bend etc but have the same closed bat angle in whip. Ma Long has this. The straighter arm before whip he also stressed many times I think allows the elbow to come out more during the whip process allowing faster racket speed. If you start the whip process with the elbow out first you miss a lot of racket speed. As mentioned by BRS in his suggestion, doing the above will naturally result in a more forward racket swing giving more speed and spin.
I suggest to try some shadow swings and then in practice to see if it works for you. Ask for feed back from your training partner to see if he can see red rubber in whip.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2018, 06:43 
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Closed racket angle is also required for the shot to bounce low on the opponent's side. Otherwise, it will be an invitation for a counterattack. That is a massive issue in my game, as my openings from both wings tend to sit up too high and people just smash them sometimes. But especially on the backhand. Which is extremely embarrassing, I have to say. Closed angle requires very fast racket speed to pull out though.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2018, 06:54 
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The bat parallel to the floor is simply a way of establishing a similar starting position. It doesn't affect the swing trajectory or the contact point on the ball and depending on how you orient your body on the backswing, the racket may not be actually parallel to the floor - it should mostly feel that way.

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PostPosted: 07 May 2018, 10:56 
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fastmover wrote:
Closed angle requires very fast racket speed to pull out though.


Imo, take for what it is worth, this is the problem with looking at pro technique and teaching it to average schmoes. Pros have unbelievably great timing and they swing very very fast, with a very small motion, at exactly the right moment. This also requires them to be in the exact right place at that moment, or make some accommodation between their body and swing to adjust, which requires a ton of physical power, balance, and body control.

I am a pretty decent player, and I practice a lot for an amateur working adult, more than 365 hours a year. (not playing matches, practicing) And I do physical training for TT on top of that. And still I have NONE of those things - the timing, the movement, the balance, none of it. Maybe barfly or maurice101 are in a different situation from me. But I think there are serious limitations on the application of ideal pro techique to low-level amateur players like me.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2018, 14:28 
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BRS that would be an interesting question to put to Brett. He did mention that many coaches do not teach a full loop stroke to over 60s. I am over 60 with average ability and lack full wrist flexibility. I am sure BRS you would beat me easily. Brett must have thought it worthwhile to focus on pro technique with me. I did have 10 hours of private lessons with him though so he could see I was keen. My attitude is to try to get to as close to pro technique as possible with my physical limitations. The effort goes down, speed and spin go through the roof :D :D :D even with some of the body and whip mechanics right.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2018, 21:50 
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maurice101 wrote:
BRS that would be an interesting question to put to Brett. He did mention that many coaches do not teach a full loop stroke to over 60s. I am over 60 with average ability and lack full wrist flexibility. I am sure BRS you would beat me easily. Brett must have thought it worthwhile to focus on pro technique with me. I did have 10 hours of private lessons with him though so he could see I was keen. My attitude is to try to get to as close to pro technique as possible with my physical limitations. The effort goes down, speed and spin go through the roof :D :D :D even with some of the body and whip mechanics right.


My comment was specifically about making a bh swing right over the top of the ball. Although I would extend it also to a full straight arm fh loop swing. Those both require a combination of timing and movement that I personally have not been able to attain. YMMV.

The other stuff you listed is not what I would call pro technique, just good technique, like using the body and having relaxed muscles. Anyone can achieve that and it's definitely appropriate to teach to all players.

Brett gives every student the benefit of the doubt, which is a wonderful attitude in a coach. Most coaches just mail it in when giving lessons to adults. I've seen it lots of times. Brett never does that.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2018, 23:05 
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I think BRS has a point. But we all can try and maybe have it one day (in some version). I believe I can fly :D


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PostPosted: 19 May 2018, 00:50 
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pgpg wrote:
fastmover wrote:
[offtopic] A cool interview, the matches are on the same channel. [/offtopic]



Where can I get the shirt Brett is wearing? I'm lately into collecting various TT jerseys/shirts etc., the more obscure the better :) .


Speaking about shirts, I wish TTEdge ones were available.


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