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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2018, 01:55 
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It has come to my attention that I have a problem against a certain type of return on both wings.

The issue: I serve a nice low backspin ball and it comes back with a lot of spin but with little speed. It results is the ball not coming out of the table much. I end up doing this loop where I'm almost always messing it up in some way or another. I seem to have no issue if the ball comes out of the table a bit more, assuming I am in position (of course mistakes still happen).

Here is a fine example of the return and an approach to looping it: https://youtu.be/VwE3V1_arX0?list=PL01o ... aO7Re&t=24 (I just noticed the next ball gets blasted by but that doesn't matter, I don't even give my opponent the chance to blast it by me)

I don't think my robot can even really reproduce this ball but thankfully one of my training partners can do it (in fact it's all he ever does against it). I think mentally I'm worried about hitting the table with the paddle/hand and I'm not sure if I should be trying a more forward motion or a more upward motion. My current thought is I should be trying to make a shorter stroke with more upward motion. I know I'm not doing that right now.

Literally getting a good quality ball on 40% of those would be a pretty big improvement on my games and in a match I want to win I'm pretty sure I'll push it back.


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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2018, 02:26 
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That often happens when an opponent is trying to make a short push but fails. Or trying to serve short and fails. It is a very difficult ball to play well against. There is a very good tutorial on it, but it is in Russian. The key things from it:

0) Hit it when it falls down
1) When looping it, the contact should be super thin, like 95% brushing motion
2) If the ball comes to forehand, you have to step-in with your right foot (for a right-handed player), like playing a short push or a flip. If you pivot, there is no need to step-in as the table is not in the way

The problem is that this ball is extremely awkward, and playing high-quality shot is difficult. But if you play a low quality shot, it often invites an aggressive block or a counterloop (like in the point you posted). It also happens to me very often, I try to loop a half-long serve, then get blocked out. That is how I lose matches :) Sometimes I feel that it is better tactically to push those long if the opponent is unlikely to attack anyway, then loop the longer push that comes back. The opener will have higher quality and I will be less likely to blocked.

I think you can simulate it with the robot easily. At least I could do it with robopong. Just make it slow enough to barely come off the table.

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2018, 09:33 
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When learning the 'feeling' of a topspin forehand I have had most success thinking about the centripetal force in my fingers and trying to maximise that. It's hard for me to explain what I mean but the feeling of g force there kind of. I don't know if it is resulting in better stroke mechanics generally as I have not yet video'd these strokes but the quality of the ball produced in terms of spin is vastly superior when I focus on this. Am I heading down the wrong path or is this a reasonable way to think about things? How does this apply to the backhand as I haven't yet figured out how to feel anything similar on that side.


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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2018, 09:43 
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fastmover wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
fastmover wrote:
[Whine mode ON] Pickleball sounds like a really nice sport to convert to once a particularly long downswing in table tennis hits really hard. [Whine mode OFF]


But I can't think of anything sadder than a pickleball downswing.


True, but maybe I have a hidden talent for pickleball that I am missing table tennis? BTW, what do you think about talent? Like is there such thing like talent for the "feeling of the ball"?


I'll answer this talent question in a few days. I believe that everything that happens to you impacts your sporting "talent". Whether or not it starts before birth is a bit of an unknown. I think that humans are mostly born with a clean slate, but some characteristics are passed down from your ancestors.

I have to go to Laos today, but I'll get back to this later in the week.

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2018, 14:04 
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FruitLoop wrote:
When learning the 'feeling' of a topspin forehand I have had most success thinking about the centripetal force in my fingers and trying to maximise that. It's hard for me to explain what I mean but the feeling of g force there kind of. I don't know if it is resulting in better stroke mechanics generally as I have not yet video'd these strokes but the quality of the ball produced in terms of spin is vastly superior when I focus on this. Am I heading down the wrong path or is this a reasonable way to think about things? How does this apply to the backhand as I haven't yet figured out how to feel anything similar on that side.


In one video on ttedge.com I believe the rush of blood to the hand is discussed. Your focused on the fingers but I feel that extra bit from the wrist myself. The whole goal of the body movement is to get the paddle moving fast. So whatever you want to visualize. One guy I'm teaching feels his shoulder.

On the backhand side it's mostly the wrist coming through. Like a frisbee.


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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2018, 22:19 
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wilkinru wrote:
It has come to my attention that I have a problem against a certain type of return on both wings.

The issue: I serve a nice low backspin ball and it comes back with a lot of spin but with little speed. It results is the ball not coming out of the table much. I end up doing this loop where I'm almost always messing it up in some way or another. I seem to have no issue if the ball comes out of the table a bit more, assuming I am in position (of course mistakes still happen).

Here is a fine example of the return and an approach to looping it: https://youtu.be/VwE3V1_arX0?list=PL01o ... aO7Re&t=24 (I just noticed the next ball gets blasted by but that doesn't matter, I don't even give my opponent the chance to blast it by me)

I don't think my robot can even really reproduce this ball but thankfully one of my training partners can do it (in fact it's all he ever does against it). I think mentally I'm worried about hitting the table with the paddle/hand and I'm not sure if I should be trying a more forward motion or a more upward motion. My current thought is I should be trying to make a shorter stroke with more upward motion. I know I'm not doing that right now.

Literally getting a good quality ball on 40% of those would be a pretty big improvement on my games and in a match I want to win I'm pretty sure I'll push it back.


Tactically, in thise situations you could serve with less spin. Just because you can serve heavy backspin doesn't mean you have to, if it isn't setting up winning patterns for you.

Technique junkie wise, the coaches at B75 would say to take that ball right at the white line with a forward stroke over the top.

Letting the ball drop so you can lift it up is risky when it's barely off the table. It seems like a pattern you want to train your way out of more than train to prepare for.


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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2018, 23:22 
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wilkinru wrote:
FruitLoop wrote:
When learning the 'feeling' of a topspin forehand I have had most success thinking about the centripetal force in my fingers and trying to maximise that. It's hard for me to explain what I mean but the feeling of g force there kind of. I don't know if it is resulting in better stroke mechanics generally as I have not yet video'd these strokes but the quality of the ball produced in terms of spin is vastly superior when I focus on this. Am I heading down the wrong path or is this a reasonable way to think about things? How does this apply to the backhand as I haven't yet figured out how to feel anything similar on that side.


In one video on ttedge.com I believe the rush of blood to the hand is discussed. Your focused on the fingers but I feel that extra bit from the wrist myself. The whole goal of the body movement is to get the paddle moving fast. So whatever you want to visualize. One guy I'm teaching feels his shoulder.

On the backhand side it's mostly the wrist coming through. Like a frisbee.


I suppose what I am worried about is the body mechanics not being correct when I do this, but when I think about them it's a disaster.


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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2018, 01:13 
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BRS wrote:
Tactically, in thise situations you could serve with less spin. Just because you can serve heavy backspin doesn't mean you have to, if it isn't setting up winning patterns for you.

Technique junkie wise, the coaches at B75 would say to take that ball right at the white line with a forward stroke over the top.

Letting the ball drop so you can lift it up is risky when it's barely off the table. It seems like a pattern you want to train your way out of more than train to prepare for.


Less spin or more spin if I care about winning, yes. Even then these balls happen from time to time. Hit the ball on the white line coming over the ball. It'd have to be a pretty big stroke to get over the net then. Maybe I should be looking for a backhand whenever it's shorter?


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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2018, 12:46 
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darucla wrote:
This reminds me of a game we used to play at school in Adelaide, if the TT tables were unavailable. We didn't use a net, but the bats (which we called paddles, and were mostly from Beach games) were similar in shape to the pickleball ones. IIRC, we used tennis balls. The courts were painted on the asphalt of the school courtyard, but i never saw it played anywhere else.


There seems to be a LOT of new/alternative racket sports these days. Paddleball, Paddle Tennis, about half a dozen varieties of Handball (which doesn't really count :lol: ), Soft Tennis, Table Squash (played with table tennis equipment!), Squash 57.. even Real Tennis (which isn't actually new) is making a comeback..

darucla wrote:
Not a cheap game. https://pickle-ball.co.uk/


I wonder if you're allowed to bandsaw some plywood and make your own paddle, or if paddles are restricted to those approved by the IPBF. Maybe there's a LAPBP. Anyhow, I was curious to see what a high level paddleball match looked like:



Looks like rushing the net, volleys and passing shots seem to be the thing. No spin, no smashing or really hard shots. I wonder if anyone uses badminton-style lob defense. Since it's played outdoors 30-40 foot high lobs are possible, and since returns have to be hit below the waist returning these would be tricky, though you could volley them back. Not as fast or complicated as table tennis, but easier for the uninitiated audience member to understand.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 21 Oct 2018, 11:43 
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ETTS48 is now available on ttEDGE.com

I just realized I went out of order in this series. Here's the link. https://ttedge.com/videos/etts48-execut ... ombe-serve

I think this is a serve that most people can related to. It's a pretty good weapon to have and most good servers have it.

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PostPosted: 21 Oct 2018, 12:13 
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Here's a list of things which I believe add to a person's sporting ability aka talent:

- probably having good genetics
- having colorful objects hanging over a baby's crib
- having objects/toys for a baby to constantly play with and manipulate
- having older siblings to constantly play sport/games with
- playing lots of video games as a child
- having a parent who plays catch etc with the child as well as other fun sports-like activities
- growing up in a sport oriented family environment
- doing a very wide range of physical activities before the age of 12
- Playing lots of different sports at school. Playing sport/games at every break during the school day
- Playing sport for fun as a child. Sport should never be formal or a chore

If one has had most of the above advantage, everyone will label them as "talented".

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 05:32 
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I think that’s a well thought-through list. Genetics does come into play, but the very act of throwing and catching a ball with your child in the park and kicking a football back and forth when they are young is so important for hand-eye coordination. And that is the basis for all sports.

Everyone knows someone who just can’t throw a ball or catch a ball. Someone who just isn’t good at ball sports. That has nothing to do with genetics imo. It is more not having had the luck or opportunity to do most of the things in the list as a young child.


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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 05:37 
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I've started to compete more recently. I'm struggling a lot with my mental game when facing certain juniors, usually between 13-16 yo.
Their technique is usually very good and they realize I'm supposed to be "worse" than them, yet I often beat them or give them a lot of trouble. This leads to some major tantrums.

Today was probably the worst I've ever faced and it put me in a bad mood the rest of the day. This kid kept complaining the whole game, choing in my face if I missed a shot, complained that I didn't know the rules because I went to get my towel at 5-5 as I was sweating everywhere and wiped the table. Fair enough, I shouldn't have done that, but most people don't care. The list goes on.
Luckily I beat him, and so did another guy from my club later on.

To be fair to him, he did apologize to me (he was told to do so by others), and realized his behaviour was unacceptable. Unfortunately this is quite a common occurrence, sometimes it makes me play worse or drains my energy so that it looks like I'm barely doing anything, funnily enough, if these kids then lose more points because of that they lose it even more mentally. But this is not how I want to deal with it, I want to be pushing myself 100% all the time and not get as affected as I do.
Either way it takes the enjoyment out of the game completely for me. I get it, they're teenagers and struggling with impulse control. For those that know what I mean, what have your experiences been and how did you deal with it?


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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 07:53 
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Richfs wrote:
I've started to compete more recently. I'm struggling a lot with my mental game when facing certain juniors, usually between 13-16 yo.
Their technique is usually very good and they realize I'm supposed to be "worse" than them, yet I often beat them or give them a lot of trouble. This leads to some major tantrums.

Today was probably the worst I've ever faced and it put me in a bad mood the rest of the day. This kid kept complaining the whole game, choing in my face if I missed a shot, complained that I didn't know the rules because I went to get my towel at 5-5 as I was sweating everywhere and wiped the table. Fair enough, I shouldn't have done that, but most people don't care. The list goes on.
Luckily I beat him, and so did another guy from my club later on.

To be fair to him, he did apologize to me (he was told to do so by others), and realized his behaviour was unacceptable. Unfortunately this is quite a common occurrence, sometimes it makes me play worse or drains my energy so that it looks like I'm barely doing anything, funnily enough, if these kids then lose more points because of that they lose it even more mentally. But this is not how I want to deal with it, I want to be pushing myself 100% all the time and not get as affected as I do.
Either way it takes the enjoyment out of the game completely for me. I get it, they're teenagers and struggling with impulse control. For those that know what I mean, what have your experiences been and how did you deal with it?


It's becoming very common in table tennis. Kids are 'Choing' more than ever now because of the Chinese and Harimoto being huge role models. I go to clubs in Asia where there are 40 or more 9-12 yr olds choing after every point. I sometimes find it amusing and I sometimes find it annoying. It depends on what type of day I'm having. I do however try to remain objectively aware of what I'm looking at.

I think your last point is the best way to help deal with the situation. If you understand why a kid is behaving the way they do, it can help to put things into perspective for yourself. Understanding that the kids are just mimicking others and that their prefrontal lobes have yet to fully develop is a good start. It takes 25 years for the human brain to fully develop and understand the context of complicated social interactions. Add some pressure and some kids are likely to go off the rails. It generally takes a man to apologize.

Imagine if someone comes up to you on the street and starts screaming at you. You'd probably get angry too and perhaps counter attack. It could easily result in a real fight. Now imagine that you know that the person screaming at you has schizophrenia or a family member just died. Would you be more objective about that person now? Would you still counter with anger? The extra knowledge would make you more objective about their behavior and their screaming should barely upset you. Perhaps it's important to understand that kids are just kids.

I have played TT too and I know that theory goes out the window in the white-hot heat of battle. Sometimes adults need to forgive themselves as well and learn to apologize for their own behavior.

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 09:24 
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I did some LTT100 yesterday after 2 hours of training, I was tired enough to give it a go and it was highly effective. (Anyone else feel kinda silly doing the upward motion? Probably less silly than my backhand serve anyway...)

Loads of top spin is just not easy to handle if you aren't 2000 or so even if you know it is coming.


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