OOAK Table Tennis Forum

You are confusing poker and TT again. Did you ever use sharkscope? Oh man. Did the work for me.

Would love to have that spreadsheet if it were real. Unfortunately, I fear TTEdge is for technique junkies who do not want to dirty themselves with such base things as deciphering and playing against the weaknesses of their opponents. So the spreadsheet probably is kept in case the listed players joined TTEDGE and asked for exceptional insight before signing on.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I bet my $19.95 membership that we'll slowly progress to more tactical or at least pattern based topics in DTT or a new segment.

We're still building hammers, saws, drills, screw drivers. We'll learn how to build a house once enough hammers are ready

This reminds me. Brett, write a book some day. You must have stories and insights about table tennis that the community would love to read.

I used Holdem Manager 2 and it's HUD.

I did actually take the player's tendencies into consideration when playing poker. This was because I wasn't smart enough to understand GTO even though I studied the game for years. Plus, I played 24 tables and I needed an instant read on Fish tendencies. HM2 could actually keep records on millions of people, so it worked for me.

In TT, tactics are a double edge sword. At lower levels, tactics can help to win you a match. In an extreme example, say I was playing someone rated 400 and he couldn't smash short high balls. A clear tactic would be to lob short every time I play the guy. I would shake hands the winner, but I wouldn't have improved my game at all. This garbage tactic would obviously never work against a 2700 player as he would chop smash every shot out of the stadium and I'd lose 11-0.

The above example is too extreme, however, it shows you a fundamental problem with tactics. If you're trying to exploit other people too much, you aren't building your own game. As you get closer to the top of the pyramid, players become less and less exploitable and all your 'smart' tricks become useless.

The key is to build your own weapons to dominated the masses. Serve short with variation, make heavy 3rd ball attacks, stay close in the rallies, return shot, play your fast shots to the middle, loop half long balls, develop solid technique etc. Without evidence, this is pretty close to Game Theory Optimal.

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I have these conversations (building one's game vs playing the opponent) on a very regular basis. It's normally me trying to explain to a <1200 to stop worrying about working out their opponent and start developing their technique and strategy. I can't ever remember having this conversation with someone rated >2600 because they instinctively get it. In 2017, I don't remember a National player opening a conversation about tactics.

Before an international match, when I'm talking to the a player, I will rarely mention the opponent. Here's a few things I may say before the player goes onto the court:
- Good tight short serves to the forehand
- Getting in a lot with your forehand
- Short low returns and follow up
- Lots of fast balls to the middle
- Stay close to the table and play strong
- Get in against half long serves
- Go the backhand when he's away from the table

I want the player to be visualizing some positive stuff.

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Building a house has nothing to do with ruining your neighbor's home.

Yes, there should be more about building your game. It's a good way to go.

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Fantastic answer. I keep thinking about a house I ruined this weekend after I was behind. On one hand it feels good to 'figure out' the player but on the other hand I denied myself a chance to improve my game. My ego feels good about my demolishing project, I'll admit. It was just a fun match, didn't matter at all.

I've been doing this a lot more lately...falling into the trap of feeling good about winning matches.

Building your weapons to dominate the masses is informed by the tendencies of the masses . Deploying them vs a specific opponent can/should be informed by the tendencies of the opponent. And while one can use optimal play to exploit the tendencies of an opponent, suboptimal ways are used by high level players as well. Finally, it helps to notice those tendencies that can be exploited so that your game can be deployed optimally against the opponent. That's my experience.

I find it odd that before the match, a player is apathetic about his opponent but maybe that is just me with my chess background. If I am within a 100 pts of my opponent, I do want to see what I can exploit in his game, making it all about who plays the better shots can make it more work than necessary.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I heard that the books those Japanese girls carry contain the dominant tendencies of their opponents when it comes to point playing patterns. Of course those patterns are not physical laws but being acquainted with them may help.

And I even heard that the Chinese worked on taking advantage of Miu Hirano's relatively weaker play vs backspin by digging with heavy backspin often into her forehand side. Shame on them for using such capped tactics.

On a more serious note, my point is still the same. There is no point in pretending that it is straightforward to know and exploit an opponent's weaknesses even when you have a great playbook. But maybe I am wrong and all that time the CNT spends mimicking opponents with practice partners is just designed to uncap their technique.

Part of the reasons those optimal plays work is that it is hard to do them without practice and it and often expected that players who have not prqxrixed as mucjbas you have will struggle with them. Usually True, but it can't be always the only or best way especially if your goal is not to be world class.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

The player is a million miles away from being apathetic about his opponent. They are very aware of how good their opponent is. The problem is, the opponents don't have serious flaws in their game and they will adapt quickly to most things. It's normally a question of how well YOU play and not how well you exploit your opponent. Most attempts to exploit your opponent result in a break in your own flow.

I've touch on this before but you subconsciously see cues, in real time, from your opponent. Your brain will pick up his early movements and you may instinctively play to the other side where he won't be. If you are locked into a lot of tactic, you will ruin this process.

When an athlete plays extremely well, he describes it as playing "out of his mind", or something similar. His highly analytical part of the brain is shut down and something deeper takes over. It's like someone else is playing and somehow making all the right decisions. Who is responsible for these amazing, on the fly, tactics?

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The Table Tennis Edge app isn't designed to uncap your technique either. It is designed to help you to subconsciously pick up early cues from your opponent. It's a different topic.

I've personally known women who keep notes about opponents. In my experience, women talk a lot more about tactics than men. I won't go into this topic.

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The rest of us dealing with more flawed opponents will just have to pretend we are playing these all seeing behemoths I guess.

I would argue that in fact, it is the combination of exploiting tendencies and training that build the strategically and tactically competent athlete.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I just watched Lui Vs Hirano at the World Cup to see the dig tactic in action. There was one clear dig to wide forehand for the match. There was lots of play to the middle which is standard and optimal these days. There was some half long balls to the forehand, but not many and it wasn't match changing. IMO, Liu won because she is currently a stronger player and was better on the day. The play seemed fairly standard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToN5123I6Eo No shame on the Chinese here.

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Just as a point to agree with Brett, As I lifted in standard and started to play the "elite" level guys more often, I paid far less attention to overall weaknesses and far more to myself; however more often than not when going in to play anyone I had played or properly observed previously, I would focus on ONE (Only One - Very important) tactic or "shot" to apply in important circumstances against said player that would give me an advantage.

A good example - played a top 10er (Datta) about 6 years ago in the Aus Open - He beat me -9, -10, and -8 and - Considerably better player than me, but after watching him play I noted that he didn't flick forehands - so when it mattered, I would serve short to his forehand (backspin mostly) or return with my smooth off his serves short to forehand, so that I had a better chance to open.

If I hadn't done this - He would have whooped me. Much better player. Had i focused on trying to play to "more weaknesses" I would have confused myself. had I not played that tactic, I would have had to rely on my lesser skill.

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Yasaka Sweden Extra
Yasaka Rakza PO 2.0mm
TSP Curl P-1R OX

"slappy slappy slappity slap"

Here's a list of things I would potentially say to a player after the first set of a match. The list is based on what happened in the set and the opponent's tendencies.

- Serve more short to the forehand/middle/backhand
- Use your backhand flick more
- Loop more 3rd balls to the forehand/middle/backhand
- Serve a few more long
- Go to the backhand when they are back from the table
- Return short when you can
- When forced to flick with your forehand, go more to the forehand/middle/backhand

It's likely that I'd only mention two or three of the above. If my player was just playing badly, I'd talk him through some visualization. It could be as simple as - You need to be serving low and tight. Then making strong plays into his middle. Get his serve short and use your strong forehand.


Here's a list of things I wouldn't say:
- Push long to his backhand...his backhand sucks
- Push long to his forehand...he can't loop properly
- Just start blocking..he can't loop 3 balls in a row
- Go back from the table and fish....he can't play high balls
- Serve long every point....he hates it
- Just keep pushing and refuse to attack...his loop percentage is horrible

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