OOAK Table Tennis Forum

I do something more like a dance. IF you sit on a chair and try rotate abs in a circle. That is enough hip engagement to add something to your shot.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Ok, I will practice the hip whip for the next few weeks and send you a video. For now I still believe that the foundation for good forehand technique needs to be built around a stroke that can be played fast and close to the table ie; focusing on generating good mechanics using the forearm and elbow, rather than the lower body.


If you look at the close to the table forehand topspin demonstration in the video below, you'll see that the racket head speed seems to be generated by the relationship between the elbow and forearm rather than the lower body. Looks like bringing the elbow behind the trunk on the backswing results in a whiplike motion between the elbow and forearm. If you think about throwing a ball, you naturally bring your elbow behind the trunk of your body as you take your arm back. I think the forehand should use similar mechanics.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=szf5leVeTjQ

Goodtechnique,

It may just be me, but the explanation for the stroke givrn in the video doesn't agree with you.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Indeed, and I find this a common and frustrating feature of tt instructional videos in general (with the exception of TTEdge of course). I think Brett mentioned somewhere on this forum that when asking top players what they are focussing on for any given shot, their explanation is utterly unsatisfactory as far as understanding the nuts and bolts of their technique goes. So usually I just focus on what I see, and try and break it down from there.

On closer inspection of this video though, I think it's quite clear that the speed on the shot isn't coming from the lower body. There's just a certain uniformness and stability in the movement in the waist and hips at the moment of contact that seems to exclude any major involvement of the lower body as far as generating racket head speed goes.

I don't agree but you may be right. To me it is all a kinetic chain but it takes comparing players with good loops to players without to get a good idea. Brett is too trained to loop badly, even his attempts to loop without the hips are good. The more you bring to the chain, the better the loops are. You can loop with less but you are always going to have a weaker loop than someone who used a stronger motion from the larger muscle groups. It is easy to involve the hips over short distances, though core and back strength become critical for balance

I think the core or hips snap the forearm, what you see is never the same as what is happening because the large muscle groups are so strong, they contribute in ways aren't always visible. You do have to not tense up the forearm and wrist for efficient transmission but it is hard to find any looper over USATT 1800 can loop without using the back and hip muscles. I usually get usrf as an example and I don't think I am

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I agree that in an ideal situation, it should be a kinetic chain, starting with the lower body and ending with the wrist. It isn't about looping with less, but playing the best shot possible without compromising your stability or movement. However, I don't think it's correct to have the mind set that a loop played without involvement of the hip is usually going to be inferior. In fact I'd say that in some circumstances where you can implement the hip, it's still better just to play the 'standard' forehand. I think core rotation and involvement of the lower body is more subconscious and an extension of the basic forehand shot that advanced players implement wherever possible, rather than being a fundamental element of the stroke to begin with.

And I'd say one of the very obvious differences between elite players and very good amateur players is the possession of a 'standard' forehand shot which can be played close to the table that requires very little if any core rotation, without necessarily sacrificing that much power or spin. I think the best argument for trying to develop this type of forehand, is simply that utilising the hip close to the table at a relatively high tempo just doesn't feel natural. And I think it's fair to say that one of the hallmarks of good technique, is that it should feel natural (although not necessarily straight away). You shouldn't feel like you're working against your body when trying to hit a forehand. Do I feel this way because my core muscles aren't strong enough and I haven't practised it enough ? Maybe. But I doubt it.

Do you have any videos of your forehand technique to share? You can PM me if you don't want to post. We are at that point where the discussion gets circular without it.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

My Teddy Bear and I agree with every word NL.

I get to teach this stuff to many people live, so I therefore get to see the results.

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Yes, I will share a video of my forehand soon. But as I said to Brett I will practice this hip forehand for a couple of weeks before I post a video. Something about it doesn't feel right, but maybe if I give it some time, I might change my mind.

As am alternative point of view, I believe the key to powerful close to the table play is the effective use of the hips. It's just about the only way to play powerful fast and effective shots. Watch Timo Boll if you doubt this. Or eve. A top female like Ding Ning. They use short hip movements to launch themselves into the ball.
I Remember playing a friend and he said that it made no sense that I could wave my hands at the ball and get such power on my backhand. I just told him that it is hard to read subtle core movements and that is what is confusing him. Just look at any trained player counterhitting. It is there if you want to see it

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Haha, touché.

Fair enough. As I said in the post above I will practise it and see how I go. I understand that reverse engineering correct table tennis technique is very difficult, and always a work in progress.
Just to be clear, I really appreciate what you're doing with TTEdge.

It will be in next week's backhand video. LTT80 - Hip Backhand Topspin is an attempt to show the invisible. How does Henzell really hit such a beautiful backhand whilst remaining relatively still. It will be more revealing that LTT79 for most.

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I appreciate all that.

I just want you to try and evaluate after. This thread exists to hopefully help you to improve your own game.

You can learn to play close to the table with micro turns. Most moves are so subtle that you won't even know you are making them.

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LTT79 has allowed me to find new equipment...a tensor even. It's called the TFL.

I went with the softest edition apparently and man does it really whip the ball when used correctly.

You can read up on this new equipment here: http://www.tabletennis11.com/TFL

The only downside is that mine is basically worn out already, after only a couple of days practicing LTT79

Thanks again Brett

For the record pretty jealous of "Jessie" near the end of LTT79. Big muscles with crazy easy rotation. I'm as far away from that as I am from the moon.

ROFL..

Iskandar