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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 07:00 
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BRS wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
BRS wrote:
I have tried coaching people, and I've been coached a lot. I've used these metaphors myself. I'm not saying they are wrong. It makes no difference if they are right or wrong.

What is wrong is the idea that any metaphor will "work" for some people. You are making a category error. Movement is not an intellectual process. Trying to logically understand it is not useful.

But everyone enjoys putting inexpressible things into words, so carry on.


So how do you coach someone? What do you do?


When I coach some adult who has been playing for ten or twenty years and can't spin the ball? I tell them to switch to short pips.

I've stopped telling people what to do or not do with their body. They can never change it. I'm not feeding them multiball every day for five years, they aren't kids, it isn't happening.

I try to demo, or else use what you did with me, asking them to hit the ball somewhere exaggerated. If they are looping into the net I might ask them to hit the back wall. Or the ceiling if they are pushing into the net. If they push my sidrspin serve off the left side if the table (my left) I ask them to hit it off the right side. Their brains will figure out what to do much better and faster if given nothing to think avout except the desired response if the ball. Russ having a guy loop over boxes is the same idea.

I am not a paid coach and I have no responsibilty, so my situation is completely different from NL's and yours. I don't have to pretend to own some knowledge that can be transmitted apart from thousands if hours of hard slog. In fact I also occasionally say what Brian Pace told me at the end of my first ever TT lesson. Hit 10,000 of them at home, and if there's still a problem come see me again.


Telling some to work towards the desired outcome is very powerful. "Show me a loop that goes very slowly with lots of spin." I've said that a lot in my life. There should be more of this type of coaching. I have a friend who mainly uses this method and it's interesting to watch.

But let's pretend that you are a professional coach and it's now on you to critique Rich's forehand in video ETTS57. His torso is dropping as his arm is coming up. What would you tell him? Do you believe that things will eventually change if you just tell him to hit the ball higher? Or do you believe that it's an exercise in futility because he's an adult and has no chance to change? What would you do?

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 07:30 
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Richfs wrote:

What I don't understand is how all the TT mechanics seem so poorly understood, even by top coaches? Why aren't they taught in the coaching courses.. are any of them taught in those courses? Do the top chinese coaches understand the mechanics well or does it simply matter much less when coaching children as they'll just copy the good players around them anyway? If this is the case then kids who are coached around top players should end up being the best players. Seems like this was the case with Waldner and other top swedes as there were so many good players around them that they could look at and copy.

I get that many coaches sort of understand them but perhaps communicate them in other ways.. hence the brushing stuff and weight transfer etc.

And as you sort of hinted at Brett.. is it that important to understand them or will many players get there eventually anyway? Or are there players that are screwed without an understanding of the mechanics the way you put them? I feel like I would be screwed. Some people seem to be better at understanding why they're doing something - so if the coach tells the student that he should transfer his weight, the student might intuitively rotate his or her hips more and find that it feels better to hit the ball using their hips, he got there sort of by accident by being told to transfer his weight. I've been told to transfer my weight before. I usually try to do what I'm told and I remember it feeling awkward, but I can remember myself hitting the balls better for a little bit but it didn't last long and I'm sure I stopped doing it the next day, probably because if felt like I was focusing on the wrong thing and didn't see the point of forcing a transfer of my weight from one foot to the other.

Fruitloop said the same thing happens in golf so I suppose there are several sports where it's like this. Wish it were possible to conduct a study for this lol. Test out different coaching methods on people of different sporting backgrounds and kids/adults and see what works best for different people.


We have a stupid sport in Australia called AFL. Most Aussies can kick the ball correctly because the game is extremely popular and it's always in your face. I too can kick the ball properly and I basically have the "correct technique". No one ever taught me to kick the ball, so I guess I just learned it in the playground, like the other 5 million kids.

When people come from Asia, they want to have a go at kicking the AFL ball. Of course they completely mess up the whole thing and it looks horrible. At first, it was weird for us to see someone mess up the kick so badly. Kicking a ball is a little bit like breathing for Aussies, especially for those who grew up in the 70s before immigration.

Now every white Aussie is an AFL coach because we want to teach our foreign friends how to kick the ball. The old Aussies are all 2500 football kickers meaning they are all qualified coaches, right? Is that how it works? They are all coaches? We hold all the "knowledge" about kicking and we are all experts on the subject, just because we can do it ourselves?

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 07:35 
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NextLevel wrote:
The issue is not whether there is hard slog, but whether 1) language can obscure the true nature of the learning process and 2) whether language has any role to play in the learning process and if so, what.


On 1 and 2 reasonable people can disagree. Or even unreasonable people like the two of us. LOL

If someone is very tense and it's messing up their strokes is it better to tell them to relax, or to shake their playing arm gently until they let their tension go?

If you tell them to release all the weight of their arm onto you, or let it be like a cooked noodle, will that help them get where you want them to go faster?

What will happen later, when they are playing, if they remember your helpful words and start consciously trying to manage the tension in their playing arm?

Will it still be helpful? Or is there potential for harm?

What if you never said any words but only gently shook his playing arm? If he remembers the feeling later when he is playing, help or harm?

Reasonable people can disagree.

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 07:46 
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BRS wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
The issue is not whether there is hard slog, but whether 1) language can obscure the true nature of the learning process and 2) whether language has any role to play in the learning process and if so, what.


On 1 and 2 reasonable people can disagree. Or even unreasonable people like the two of us. LOL

If someone is very tense and it's messing up their strokes is it better to tell them to relax, or to shake their playing arm gently until they let their tension go?

If you tell them to release all the weight of their arm onto you, or let it be like a cooked noodle, will that help them get where you want them to go faster?

What will happen later, when they are playing, if they remember your helpful words and start consciously trying to manage the tension in their playing arm?

Will it still be helpful? Or is there potential for harm?

What if you never said any words but only gently shook his playing arm? If he remembers the feeling later when he is playing, help or harm?

Reasonable people can disagree.


I am probably too slow to get the relevance of this but maybe in a few years. Just because you can't learn consciously through verbal analogies doesn't mean other people don't or can't. And it doesn't mean that language or thought inspired by language has no role to play in learning a physical activity. If you are saying something that is related to that point (other than acting as if anyone is advocating language to the exclusion of other tools for teaching), please let me know. Just because language does nothing for you doesn't mean it doesn't or can't do something for other people. I would dispute the claim that language hasn't done anything for you but I have already seen how you would interpret it so I won't seriously try. There is as much potential for damage in hard slog as there is on language. You disagree?

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 07:55 
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So a coach introduced me to this drill of 3 loops for you and 3 loops for your partner with alternating blocks. Unfortunately my camera dies during this drill so I haven't seen an extended session of myself doing it in the club.

I struggle to get going here but I really like the drill. Anything I could do better? Any other block type drills with wrinkles you really like?

https://youtu.be/GwZ14cGK-E0

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 07:59 
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NextLevel wrote:
So a coach introduced me to this drill of 3 loops for you and 3 loops for your partner with alternating blocks. Unfortunately my camera dies during this drill so I haven't seen an extended session of myself doing it in the club.

I struggle to get going here but I really like the drill. Anything I could do better? Any other block type drills with wrinkles you really like?

https://youtu.be/GwZ14cGK-E0



Your 'partner' is trying to blast them and not loop with you. Sometimes it's difficult to understand the drill is more for consistency.

You looped at a nice manageable rate. Seems like a nice warm up drill. Maybe you could alternate down the line and cross court if it got easy.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 08:02 
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Richfs wrote:
And as you sort of hinted at Brett.. is it that important to understand them or will many players get there eventually anyway? Or are there players that are screwed without an understanding of the mechanics the way you put them? I feel like I would be screwed. Some people seem to be better at understanding why they're doing something - so if the coach tells the student that he should transfer his weight, the student might intuitively rotate his or her hips more and find that it feels better to hit the ball using their hips, he got there sort of by accident by being told to transfer his weight. I've been told to transfer my weight before. I usually try to do what I'm told and I remember it feeling awkward, but I can remember myself hitting the balls better for a little bit but it didn't last long and I'm sure I stopped doing it the next day, probably because if felt like I was focusing on the wrong thing and didn't see the point of forcing a transfer of my weight from one foot to the other.


Kids normally get there providing they see enough good tt. The more they see, the more likely they'll have proper technique.

YouTube is a game changer, especially for children outside of Asia and Europe. They can now watch the top players and it's pretty hard to stuff it up from there, as per my AFL post above. The more it's in their face, the harder it is to stuff it up, regardless of the "coaching" they receive.

For learning adults, things are a bit different. If you go to a club in the US, you'll see lots of adults playing strange. I believe these players need good coaching. If a ttEDGE member sends me a video and he/she is looking better than the players on the other tables, I feel like I've had a win. When BRS hits a forehand topspin exponentially better than his peers, I feel good about it, regardless of what he really thinks.

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 08:12 
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NextLevel wrote:
So a coach introduced me to this drill of 3 loops for you and 3 loops for your partner with alternating blocks. Unfortunately my camera dies during this drill so I haven't seen an extended session of myself doing it in the club.

I struggle to get going here but I really like the drill. Anything I could do better? Any other block type drills with wrinkles you really like?

https://youtu.be/GwZ14cGK-E0


I really like the drill Laj. I especially like the fact that you feel responsible for hitting 3 balls on the table. I try to make players more responsible during a private coaching session. I do a lot of counting so they know I want every ball on the table.

Twist your body slightly more on the block. It will stop you from poking at the ball in matches.

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 10:22 
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My goal is to make my backhand great again. I have been found guilty of pushing too many balls that I would have attacked 3 or 4 years ago (for obvious reasons IMO, but no one cares).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fjD7uL1c58

The first 6 minutes are me practicing a backhand flick against heavy backspin, which is the spin that I am often scare to flick against and usually push. Any recommendations?

Also, what kind of ball is too short to flick against? When is the short push clearly preferable?

I am beginning to feel better about my serves in general again. They aren't all the way back (not enough practice) but I am focusing more on spin rather than length and not serving as much backspin! And the length is paradoxically getting better.

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 12:03 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
When people come from Asia, they want to have a go at kicking the AFL ball. Of course they completely mess up the whole thing and it looks horrible. At first, it was weird for us to see someone mess up the kick so badly.


Is it even worse than my "pendulum" serve?

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 18:25 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
Richfs wrote:

What I don't understand is how all the TT mechanics seem so poorly understood, even by top coaches? Why aren't they taught in the coaching courses.. are any of them taught in those courses? Do the top chinese coaches understand the mechanics well or does it simply matter much less when coaching children as they'll just copy the good players around them anyway? If this is the case then kids who are coached around top players should end up being the best players. Seems like this was the case with Waldner and other top swedes as there were so many good players around them that they could look at and copy.

I get that many coaches sort of understand them but perhaps communicate them in other ways.. hence the brushing stuff and weight transfer etc.

And as you sort of hinted at Brett.. is it that important to understand them or will many players get there eventually anyway? Or are there players that are screwed without an understanding of the mechanics the way you put them? I feel like I would be screwed. Some people seem to be better at understanding why they're doing something - so if the coach tells the student that he should transfer his weight, the student might intuitively rotate his or her hips more and find that it feels better to hit the ball using their hips, he got there sort of by accident by being told to transfer his weight. I've been told to transfer my weight before. I usually try to do what I'm told and I remember it feeling awkward, but I can remember myself hitting the balls better for a little bit but it didn't last long and I'm sure I stopped doing it the next day, probably because if felt like I was focusing on the wrong thing and didn't see the point of forcing a transfer of my weight from one foot to the other.

Fruitloop said the same thing happens in golf so I suppose there are several sports where it's like this. Wish it were possible to conduct a study for this lol. Test out different coaching methods on people of different sporting backgrounds and kids/adults and see what works best for different people.


We have a stupid sport in Australia called AFL. Most Aussies can kick the ball correctly because the game is extremely popular and it's always in your face. I too can kick the ball properly and I basically have the "correct technique". No one ever taught me to kick the ball, so I guess I just learned it in the playground, like the other 5 million kids.

When people come from Asia, they want to have a go at kicking the AFL ball. Of course they completely mess up the whole thing and it looks horrible. At first, it was weird for us to see someone mess up the kick so badly. Kicking a ball is a little bit like breathing for Aussies, especially for those who grew up in the 70s before immigration.

Now every white Aussie is an AFL coach because we want to teach our foreign friends how to kick the ball. The old Aussies are all 2500 football kickers meaning they are all qualified coaches, right? Is that how it works? They are all coaches? We hold all the "knowledge" about kicking and we are all experts on the subject, just because we can do it ourselves?


What's funny is there are Irish players who get signed to play and they have to relearn how to kick it, since they come from a sport that uses a round ball and therefore a totally different technique even though they also grew up with something so similar. It's a much more straight on punt kick required with the oval ball than the sideways swerving kick they would be used to which is more like a soccer kick.


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 01:31 
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NextLevel wrote:
My goal is to make my backhand great again. I have been found guilty of pushing too many balls that I would have attacked 3 or 4 years ago (for obvious reasons IMO, but no one cares).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fjD7uL1c58

The first 6 minutes are me practicing a backhand flick against heavy backspin, which is the spin that I am often scare to flick against and usually push. Any recommendations?

Also, what kind of ball is too short to flick against? When is the short push clearly preferable?

I am beginning to feel better about my serves in general again. They aren't all the way back (not enough practice) but I am focusing more on spin rather than length and not serving as much backspin! And the length is paradoxically getting better.


Is my technique so bad it deserves no comment? :headbang:

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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 01:52 
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NextLevel wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
My goal is to make my backhand great again. I have been found guilty of pushing too many balls that I would have attacked 3 or 4 years ago (for obvious reasons IMO, but no one cares).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fjD7uL1c58

The first 6 minutes are me practicing a backhand flick against heavy backspin, which is the spin that I am often scare to flick against and usually push. Any recommendations?

Also, what kind of ball is too short to flick against? When is the short push clearly preferable?

I am beginning to feel better about my serves in general again. They aren't all the way back (not enough practice) but I am focusing more on spin rather than length and not serving as much backspin! And the length is paradoxically getting better.


Is my technique so bad it deserves no comment? :headbang:


You really need to start editing your videos a little bit. Just chop them up into 1-3 min clips for the thing you want to go over. I've been using this editor lately. It's free and pretty simple for our use.
https://www.nchsoftware.com/videopad/kb/free.html

On to the drill itself. It looks pretty good on the flicks. I honestly think most of his serves are at least half long, tho. Some of them are clearly long. I find a lot of value focusing on watching the depth of the serve, determining if it's long or short and acting accordingly. I find that to be an extremely challenging drill then.


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 01:57 
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wilkinru wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
My goal is to make my backhand great again. I have been found guilty of pushing too many balls that I would have attacked 3 or 4 years ago (for obvious reasons IMO, but no one cares).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fjD7uL1c58

The first 6 minutes are me practicing a backhand flick against heavy backspin, which is the spin that I am often scare to flick against and usually push. Any recommendations?

Also, what kind of ball is too short to flick against? When is the short push clearly preferable?

I am beginning to feel better about my serves in general again. They aren't all the way back (not enough practice) but I am focusing more on spin rather than length and not serving as much backspin! And the length is paradoxically getting better.


Is my technique so bad it deserves no comment? :headbang:


You really need to start editing your videos a little bit. Just chop them up into 1-3 min clips for the thing you want to go over. I've been using this editor lately. It's free and pretty simple for our use.
https://www.nchsoftware.com/videopad/kb/free.html

On to the drill itself. It looks pretty good on the flicks. I honestly think most of his serves are at least half long, tho. Some of them are clearly long. I find a lot of value focusing on watching the depth of the serve, determining if it's long or short and acting accordingly. I find that to be an extremely challenging drill then.


Yeah I do think the serves are half long. One of the advantages of using the backhand is that you can play a quality ball no matter the length with a similar looking stroke. Sometimes I like to simplify my TT as I won't always be able to read the length. Though that might lead to someone baiting me with half long serves to get a flick to counterloop. But I will deal with that when the time comes. Will probably need to push as a variation.

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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 02:07 
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NextLevel wrote:

Yeah I do think the serves are half long. One of the advantages of using the backhand is that you can play a quality ball no matter the length with a similar looking stroke. Sometimes I like to simplify my TT as I won't always be able to read the length. Though that might lead to someone baiting me with half long serves to get a flick to counterloop. But I will deal with that when the time comes. Will probably need to push as a variation.


Yeah I think the reading practice is more important for forehands. Still with that drill it's a good time to do it. Generally I'll do 10-20 balls with the flick and nothing else and then try to read the depth. Your partner there at least serves good backspin.


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