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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 14:09 
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I'm glad you posted a match. Here's what I saw, fwiw.

Starting with the obvious, you are both very good players. It wad a high quality match.

You served almost always long or half-long to his fh. It seemed as if you are just working on that serve and not going all-out to win. He is more of a bh player, so he didn't win many points on receive. But you probably could have gotten some easy 3rd ball attacks by varying your serves more in placement and depth.

You really didn't do much with your bh in this match, a few blocks and pushes. And that's a dhsme because a lefty bh can be a real weapon playing off a righty's wide fh line. You are in a similar sotiation to mine, where your fh is so much stronger, all your attention should go to bringing your bh up. Switching to short pips may be too extreme for you, but I'm enjoying it very much. It's an effective style, and you pivot so well it would negate some of the SP weaknesses.

A few times you hung your head after a bad miss, and had some negative body language. We all do it, but it doesn't help at all. Try to snap out of it before the next point if you can. I try to nod my head and think something dumb but affirmative like "Come on." Or " You can do it." It's kind of goofy but it helps.

In the fifth set kind of got away from you after a few missed flicks. If you make those the match probably goes your way. Getting the early lead means a lot in a fifth set.

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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 14:22 
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BRS wrote:
But for the first time I have a really clear style vision, and it's a women's game style. They pivot, but only opportunistically, it isn't the major part of their game.


It is good that you have your vision. I have a very vague idea of the game I want to play and go from one extreme to another all the time. One day I want to jump like a kangaroo and pivot against everything, on the other one I cover more than half of the table with the backhand. Recently I was thinking about converting to a chopper, I like chopping.

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Last edited by Dr.Pivot on 22 Jan 2019, 14:30, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 14:24 
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Richfs wrote:
BRS wrote:
Did I play well or badly? Is the opponent better or worse than me? By how much? Should I feel bad about this loss, or good, terrible, great, or just meh, okay? Why did I lose? Why did he win? Should I do anything differently next time we play?


I watched your match too Ben, I don't think there's much for me to say than what has already been said. I think you look like a steady player overall, incredible that you started in your 40's(?) and got to a decent level.

I finally started recording my training matches today. You inspired me to upload one of them. So here's a best out of 5 which I also lost 2-3. I have a lot of problems with reading this guys serve. He's only been coming to our club a couple of months. The odd thing is that I had no problems the first couple of times I played him. Then I had a couple of months where I lost badly (I was losing badly to mostly everyone) and that's when I took a short break.

At the moment we're fairly even, from a ranking perspective I should have the advantage.. but when I lose my focus on his serves I have no chance and just mess up over and over again. I struggle especially with his backspin serve which often comes half long.. from watching myself I think I need more LTT93. On several of them my back seems pretty straight. On his sidetopspin serves to my backhand I just prodded the ball several times. I read the spin too late and don't know what to do.

As you can tell I don't really have a backhand in matches. I think I hit one single backhand against backspin and I'm lacking the bowing movement. I'll also be taking notes from that vid of your BH open up against backspin Brett.. I need it.

I recently started trying out the punch serve as I sometimes can get the ball to kick, which I still can't do with the pendulum but this guy has seen it several times now.. it's also not a serve I'm that consistent with, I think I'm lacking the body movement with it atm.

Any comments are appreciated :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TxSkGmLILY&t=


Thanks for posting Rich. It takes something to post a losing match and let people criticize you. 95% of people just email me matches and I'd probably do the same if I were in their shoes. Please keep in mind that your level is very high for this environment and all criticism should be taken for what it is.

I can completely relate to your style of play. I have similar strengths and weaknesses. In fact, every single thing I say about your game totally applies to me too. This post is almost an open letter to myself.

Here's a list of thing to think about:
- You win almost all of your points from your serve & forehand, so then it's hard for you to play a backhand because you are always hoping for a forehand.
- You are sometimes stepping into your forehand and you lack torso rotation. This causes 2 problems. The first is your arm isn't propelled enough. The second is you can't play a backhand after the forehand because it leaves you side on.
- You don't fold down and then up enough on the FH topspin (LTT93)
- If an opponent has really spinny serves and you are struggling to return them, there's a 90% chance that they are all long. It's extremely difficult to have brilliant short serves.
- If you can't consistently receive your opponent's serve short, there's a 90% chance they are all long.
- If someone is serving long every serve, you should almost never push it.
- Your backhand clearly needs to improve and it's going to take months/years. Your blocking is shaky because of long term negative results. You need to clearly define your backhand technique by exaggerating it in training.
- You sometimes serve accidentally long because you are nervous and lack the tools needed to keep the serve short. NL assumes that you are deliberately serving long to the guy's forehand, but I don't. I think they are all accidents. It needs to be worked on.
- You need to work on your emotional level and confidence. This is the most important point by 1000 miles. I would say 80% of your errors are the result of confidence issues and they aren't as technical as they look. For example, not bending down for topspins can be the result of nervous uncertainty. Trust me...I'm an expert at it!

That's enough for both of us to think about for now. There are long term solutions to all of the above, but it not very easy to improve from your level, so it's going to take some effort. I will work with you on all of this.

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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 22:00 
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I didn't think Rich was so much deliberately serving long into the forehand as he was deliberately always serving into the forehand, often half long and accidentally long and even long. Maybe the opponent has a tremendous backhand receive?

It would be interesting to see what happens if Rich allows those backhand serves to bounce twice.

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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 22:31 
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Wow, big thanks to all of you for the detailed feedback, I'm grateful for it. I've never received such detailed feedback before.

NextLevel wrote:
Rich,

I admire your courage serving long into someone's forehand and even sometimes successfully surviving the aftermath. But I think pushing to anyone's forehand repeatedly is just bad form unless they have a terrible forehand and this guy doesn't. He is so consistent going down the line that it is obvious your ball quality is right in his wheelhouse. You also need to serve to a few more spots on the table to slow him down.

Since you didn't push any of his serves off the table the problem is that you really don't know how to push quality backspin. Sticking your paddle out there doesn't work beyond a certain level. You have to get low enough to get the ball over the net with a forward stroke.


I agree and like Brett said, most of the time it's happening by accident. Actually, quite often I haven't collected my thoughts before I serve and just serve something. Perhaps a bit of extra nerves from the camera. Looking back I find it funny to watch myself serve there over and over again and be lucky to get away with it.

Because I've become so scared of this guys serves I'm extra hesitant and just want to get the ball back because then I'm at least still in the point.. terrible mindset I know. At the moment I've just been trying to touch it back and hope it goes short but more often than not it's going long and I'm lucky if he misses. Next time I play him I'll try going for more positive pushes.

wilkinru wrote:
I think your serve is illegal. It just gets tossed back more than I would allow in a tournament setting. It's bordering on just tossing the ball back to your blade.


The toss is not as vertical as I'd like and my palm isn't open enough, I'm aware of it but been struggling to fix it.

wilkinru wrote:

You had trouble reading his serves, the TTedge app and learning the backhand serve yourself would aid you. I could read them but my primary serve looks very similar to your opponent (so much so I will want to watch it again from his POV to see if he's doing anything I could learn from).


His serves are spinnier than you'd expect and he varies them really well, luckily I'm not the only person struggling with them in our club.. they're a tough nut to crack for all of us. I need to concentrate hard watching this guy serve.

BRS wrote:
You served almost always long or half-long to his fh. It seemed as if you are just working on that serve and not going all-out to win. He is more of a bh player, so he didn't win many points on receive. But you probably could have gotten some easy 3rd ball attacks by varying your serves more in placement and depth.

You really didn't do much with your bh in this match, a few blocks and pushes. And that's a dhsme because a lefty bh can be a real weapon playing off a righty's wide fh line. You are in a similar sotiation to mine, where your fh is so much stronger, all your attention should go to bringing your bh up. Switching to short pips may be too extreme for you, but I'm enjoying it very much. It's an effective style, and you pivot so well it would negate some of the SP weaknesses.

A few times you hung your head after a bad miss, and had some negative body language. We all do it, but it doesn't help at all. Try to snap out of it before the next point if you can. I try to nod my head and think something dumb but affirmative like "Come on." Or " You can do it." It's kind of goofy but it helps.

In the fifth set kind of got away from you after a few missed flicks. If you make those the match probably goes your way. Getting the early lead means a lot in a fifth set.


I think because I kept getting away with placing the serve there I kept mindlessly doing it. From experience serving more towards his BH it usually goes long and he puts those away. I think I need some practice on serving shorter.. perhaps with just a little less spin.
Maybe I'm putting too much effort into getting more spin so the serve drifts long.

I seriously need to put a lot more attention to my backhand in practice and all of these posts are giving me more motivation to do so.

BRS wrote:
A few times you hung your head after a bad miss, and had some negative body language. We all do it, but it doesn't help at all. Try to snap out of it before the next point if you can. I try to nod my head and think something dumb but affirmative like "Come on." Or " You can do it." It's kind of goofy but it helps.


Yep, something else I'm aware of, that I REALLY need to work on but it's so hard. I'll catch myself doing it and just think nono, stop. I show too much of this negative body language and my opponents in league matches and tournaments feed of of it. It just happens automatically at this stage and I don't know how to take my frustration out. Brett gave me some resources for my nervousness and I'll be giving that a go. Simply being more aware of it than ever might be a start.. time will tell.

Brett Clarke wrote:

Thanks for posting Rich. It takes something to post a losing match and let people criticize you. 95% of people just email me matches and I'd probably do the same if I were in their shoes. Please keep in mind that your level is very high for this environment and all criticism should be taken for what it is.

I can completely relate to your style of play. I have similar strengths and weaknesses. In fact, every single thing I say about your game totally applies to me too. This post is almost an open letter to myself.

Here's a list of thing to think about:
- You win almost all of your points from your serve & forehand, so then it's hard for you to play a backhand because you are always hoping for a forehand.
- You are sometimes stepping into your forehand and you lack torso rotation. This causes 2 problems. The first is your arm isn't propelled enough. The second is you can't play a backhand after the forehand because it leaves you side on.
- You don't fold down and then up enough on the FH topspin (LTT93)
- If an opponent has really spinny serves and you are struggling to return them, there's a 90% chance that they are all long. It's extremely difficult to have brilliant short serves.
- If you can't consistently receive your opponent's serve short, there's a 90% chance they are all long.
- If someone is serving long every serve, you should almost never push it.
- Your backhand clearly needs to improve and it's going to take months/years. Your blocking is shaky because of long term negative results. You need to clearly define your backhand technique by exaggerating it in training.
- You sometimes serve accidentally long because you are nervous and lack the tools needed to keep the serve short. NL assumes that you are deliberately serving long to the guy's forehand, but I don't. I think they are all accidents. It needs to be worked on.
- You need to work on your emotional level and confidence. This is the most important point by 1000 miles. I would say 80% of your errors are the result of confidence issues and they aren't as technical as they look. For example, not bending down for topspins can be the result of nervous uncertainty. Trust me...I'm an expert at it!

That's enough for both of us to think about for now. There are long term solutions to all of the above, but it not very easy to improve from your level, so it's going to take some effort. I will work with you on all of this.


Great observations Brett.. there cannot be many coaches that are this good at seeing these things. The same goes to you NL, I've read a lot of your posts and it's clear you have an eye for detail not many coaches have.

Amazing what a video can do, I was somewhat shocked myself seeing the lack of LTT93 because what I've been decent at for a long time is picking up backspin balls with my FH whilst also being aware of LTT93, yet I've not been doing the folding enough.

What drills would you recommend for my backhand? I can record a few backhands during my next practice. I will also keep recording my matches and if I think it's an interesting one I'll share it here.


Last edited by Richfs on 04 Feb 2019, 06:27, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 22:35 
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NextLevel wrote:
I didn't think Rich was so much deliberately serving long into the forehand as he was deliberately always serving into the forehand, often half long and accidentally long and even long. Maybe the opponent has a tremendous backhand receive?

It would be interesting to see what happens if Rich allows those backhand serves to bounce twice.


Next time I play him I'll try to try serve more towards his backhand and we'll see what happens. It's also because it feels slightly more awkward for me to serve to the BH side, but that's just another thing to work on.

I'll also see if he can just serve to me for a bit and we'll see what happens.


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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 22:39 
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No point in commenting now Brett and NL have done so but which one are you out of interest Rich before I watch?


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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 22:45 
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FruitLoop wrote:
No point in commenting now Brett and NL have done so but which one are you out of interest Rich before I watch?


I'm the one in the light blue shirt :)


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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 22:50 
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Richfs wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
I didn't think Rich was so much deliberately serving long into the forehand as he was deliberately always serving into the forehand, often half long and accidentally long and even long. Maybe the opponent has a tremendous backhand receive?

It would be interesting to see what happens if Rich allows those backhand serves to bounce twice.


Next time I play him I'll try to try serve more towards his backhand and we'll see what happens. It's also because it feels slightly more awkward for me to serve to the BH side, but that's just another thing to work on.

I'll also see if he can just serve to me for a bit and we'll see what happens.


100% of my short serves go to the right hander's forehand too. I'm telling you, we are like twins Rich!

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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 23:05 
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Part of the reason this guy plays Rich well is that he has very strong down the line loops. If you can loop down the line consistently, especially on the redirect when taken wide, you will play lefties very well.

I think the usual lefty serving strategy is short to forehand , long to backhand. I am not saying that you (Rich) should serve more than 10% to the backhand but I am fairly sure at some point the opponent just started parking on the forehand side and that increased the quality of his serve return. This is what the long serves to the backhand are supposed to prevent especially when you don't telegraph them.

And you don't necessarily have to let him serve to you for a bit. In a real match, there is nothing wrong with losing a point to a double bounce serve. It happens to everyone who is really trying to see whether the opponent is serving short or not. The pay off is that you get more patient and better at attacking long serves.

I learned the easy way yesterday that the advice to take short serves early is not necessarily the best way to play at my level. Good coaches have been telling me for a long time to learn to take the ball later and I am finally catching on as to why. Yet almost no one teaches this on videos.

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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 23:16 
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NextLevel wrote:
Part of the reason this guy plays Rich well is that he has very strong down the line loops. If you can loop down the line consistently, especially on the redirect when taken wide, you will play lefties very well.

I think the usual lefty serving strategy is short to forehand , long to backhand. I am not saying that you (Rich) should serve more than 10% to the backhand but I am fairly sure at some point the opponent just started parking on the forehand side and that increased the quality of his serve return. This is what the long serves to the backhand are supposed to prevent especially when you don't telegraph them.

And you don't necessarily have to let him serve to you for a bit. In a real match, there is nothing wrong with losing a point to a double bounce serve. It happens to everyone who is really trying to see whether the opponent is serving short or not. The pay off is that you get more patient and better at attacking long serves.

I learned the easy way yesterday that the advice to take short serves early is not necessarily the best way to play at my level. Good coaches have been telling me for a long time to learn to take the ball later and I am finally catching on as to why. Yet almost no one teaches this on videos.


Hey Rich, read the above post a few times...it's NextLevel at his best!

The reason why you shouldn't get too excited about serving short to the backhand is because you already struggle to serve short to the forehand. Imagine if we take 20-30cm of table away from your short serve. It would be very long at this stage.

As NL said, you could change the guys receiving position by making him scared of the long serve to the backhand. Then, against your short serve, you will start to get lobs, direct misses and soft flicks. That's where the party is.

I personally go after my short serve like there's no tomorrow. I balance it will long stuff to the backhand. I can't serve short to the backhand because I serve too aggressively. I need that 30cms to make the ball have some chance of bouncing twice.

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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 23:20 
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NextLevel wrote:
Part of the reason this guy plays Rich well is that he has very strong down the line loops. If you can loop down the line consistently, especially on the redirect when taken wide, you will play lefties very well.


So true!

It's especially true right vs left, but it's good to go down the line against almost everyone.

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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 23:31 
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Watch this point with He Zhi Wen.

He serves long 80% of the time (I don't recommended anyone else try it), but when he does suddenly serve short to the FH, this is the type of return he gets. https://youtu.be/tTZo54cBbLA?t=1639 If you watch the point a few times, you'll see the Russian had to initially cover the down-the-line serve to the backhand. By the time he realizes it's not going there, he suddenly rushes in to make a mess. I know this was an irrelevant 10-4 point, but it happens a lot.

The moral of the story is, I think Rich needs to develop a good long serve to the backhand to balance out his strategy. I call it strategy, and not tactic, because it's something Rich should do against almost everyone.

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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 23:33 
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fastmover wrote:
Recently I was thinking about converting to a chopper, I like chopping.


Why not try it for a while? Chopping is a great style if you enjoy defending. You would have to buy a chopping setup to give it a fair try, but if that doesn't bother you then go for it. Worst case you can always change back, and probably have learned stuff that will transfer.

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PostPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 23:49 
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BRS wrote:
fastmover wrote:
Recently I was thinking about converting to a chopper, I like chopping.


Why not try it for a while? Chopping is a great style if you enjoy defending. You would have to buy a chopping setup to give it a fair try, but if that doesn't bother you then go for it. Worst case you can always change back, and probably have learned stuff that will transfer.


In my more petulant moments, I feel I was denied the option to play all these styles by my knees. I definitely would have messed around with short pips chopping if I had the knees to support the footwork.

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