OOAK Table Tennis Forum

fastmover, in an alternate reality, if you could download and install either Ma Long's forehand & backhand or Ma Long's tactics, which would you choose? I'm not sure you'd improve 1% if just chose tactics. You may even get worse.

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A little tactics in the match can help a lot, tho.

If someone cannot loop..you can push a little more to get a good ball to loop.
If someone keeps blocking your forehand loop - you probably have an issue with your loop but in the middle of a match you can go to the middle/backhand.
If someone can't handle a serve...keep doing it but keep the variation.
If someone keeps attacking your forehand, maybe not recover so quickly to the backhand.

This is probably the sum of my tactics right now.

In truth I need to get more spin on my backhand loops against topspin/block, I need to get more depth on my forehand loop (or less depth!). My serve return needs to be aggressive but safe. I need more consistency. I need to serve better more often. Less free points and high serves. I need to be prepared for the serve I'm serving.

Ma long forehand would probably move me up quite a bit very quickly and if I had that I would focus on my backhand and serve to take advantage of it. That would move me up fastest.

Brett is right...we can really worry about tactics when our skills are at a higher level. Losing to the guy who is 1600 because of big holes in your game is why you lost, not because your tactics were unsound. Tactics might have won the match...but more skill would have easily won the match.

The way I interpret this whole 'tactics vs. technique' debate: when someone like 'fastmover' or myself think tactics, it's usually in the context of: "OK, I'm playing this dude right now, and I'm pretty sure my technique is not going to magically improve in the next 20 minutes, it is what it is - so what should I do to maximize my chances of winning this damn match". Sometimes it might mean pushing/blocking long balls instead of looping them, because, well, you just don't have it yet, and there are rating points/tournament advancement/team success on the line, so...

A bit different for meaningless club/practice match, there you probably should do the right long term thingie, today's loss be damned!

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USATT: 1807 | League: 1887

This is my main point.

Also, it's okay to exploit your opponent in the context of your own game. If your opponent has a bad backhand then you should attack it frequently (with your perfect forehand topspin, of course). You do need to be aware though that there are diminishing returns on this type of thing. As opponents get better, you'll have less areas to exploit.

If you don't have good shots, you'll be limited to exploiting very bad players. Spend most of your time working on improving your shots.

Hopefully the PTTP series will help members to understand something about tactical awareness. For example, today's video is about serving reverse short to the forehand because it's a good idea. The problem is, you need to be able to serve a reverse serve. This tactic will however work against 100% of players.

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You are correct Peter. I totally get it and I'd do the same. If I was 10-10 in the 7th with some guy for $10K, I'd desperately be thinking about how to win the next point...but only in the context of my own game and strengths.

For example, there is no way that I'd plan to push long to the guy's forehand at 10-10, regardless of how bad I thought his loop is. Pushing long to someone's forehand has nothing to do with my overall strategy which I worked on my entire life. I'd more likely be thinking about how to win the point based on my strengths and perhaps a soft point in the opponent's game. That may include me serving short and spinning to his weakest point. Or returning short and spinning to his weakest point.

If I was coaching Henzell and advised him to push long to someone's forehand at 10-10 in the 7th, I'm confident that he'd assault me after the match. Now I know that people reading this post aren't anything like Henzell. They haven't spent a life time trying to keep opponents away from the first attack etc. That said, everyone should be working towards building some sort of strategy which suits them and should have a positive long term outcome. They should be building strengths and weapons to use against opponents.

If you are just playing once a weak and you aren't building anything, then this post isn't really for you. I do however imagine that most people who are now reading post 3544 in a forum thread named 'executing table tennis shots' are actually working on their game.

This post also isn't straight up about technique. We are now back to the old strategy vs exploiting conversation. If you want a solid strategy, you need to have good shots / technique.

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If I had a choice, I'd downloaded Ma Long's anticipation, that would be enough for me: the rest is covered in the Learning Table Tennis Series

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Tactics Enthusiast

Yes, but there are other things even beyond tactics that may be a matter of winning or losing when the levels are close. I almost finished "Winning Ugly" and it has some good points. For example, he talks about maintaining focus, which may sound like a banal thing: everybody says you have to be focused. The trick is sometimes you are not aware that you've lost it. Brad calls one potential dangerous situation the "Happy camper": when players win the first game or make a series of extraordinary shots, they become complacent and lose the focus: why bother if you can win anyway? The problems happens when the opponent starts to fight back and the magic shots don't land anymore, the player is in panic and the match is slipping away.

The skill is to be aware of this dynamics and keep pressuring yourself to the finish line even when the opponent is choking. I will give an example from the U1800 quarterfinals I played yesterday. I played a blocker who was blocking all my opening shots long in the first two games, which I won easily. In the third I started experimenting if I could win with my backhand instead of stepping around, which costed me a few points and I lost at ten. In the next two games she punched my loops for winners with no mistakes and I had no chances and lost 2-3. Had I maintained the discipline I would have won easily, but I was too happy that I won all my RR matches and the quarters were almost in my pocket. Somehow I could stay focused during my five RR matches, but in the playoffs it leaked.

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Tactics Enthusiast

fastmover, your anticipation response is a good one (not because of the LTT reference). Ma Long's anticipation is probably the best in the world and anticipation isn't well understood. I was lucky enough to have a very smart guy explain it to me 30 years ago. He was talking about baseball but it's all the same stuff.

I have some more good news for you. I found a way to download Ma Long's tactics too and, the good news is, you'll be able to learn them quickly. Here they are, in no particular order:
1. Serve short and topspin strong from both sides.
2. Banana flick receive / push short receive and topspin strong from both sides.

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Sounds like she adjusted in later games to your loops, opponents do it sometimes (did she also have a coach with her?). Hard to speculate whether it was you who should be blamed for loss of focus or may be she should be getting extra credit here for timely adjustments.

As far as RR vs. SE matches: in RR you are typically less challenged, there is not as much pressure (if 2 players advance, although playing underrated juniors creates a special level of stress), and you are not as tired, perhaps. Lately I was contemplating entering fewer events per day at large tournaments, let's say 2 instead of 3. Yes, fewer matches on your trip, but you are less rushed, not as tired, and might have better chances at going deeper in SE stages.

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The happy camper effect is definitely real. I had a classic episode last Sunday. Playing a chopper for the first time and we split the first two sets. In the third I made a couple of nice fade fhs and got up 10-6, serving. I didn't really focus on my serves or have any plan, just thought "I'm sure to win one of the next four points." Classic happy camper thinking. Of course I lost after four or five deuces and went down 3-1.

I've had the same thing happen from my opponent lots of times. It's like they just stop playing before the set/match is over.

To me that's not tactics or technique, mental strength is it's own thing. There's a lot of ways lack of mental toughness manifests -- going on tilt, allowing your spirit to be broken, and getting distracted are the ones that stand out. These things matter a lot in competition.

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I'd call it mental awareness instead of toughness. It is not about confronting a challenge, like pressure, but rather about being aware of what is going on. "Winning Ugly" has another thing that I found valuable. He says that in the very first game it often makes sense to dial down your power to, say, 70% of the maximum. The reason is that in the first game you are still adjusting to the conditions and the opponent, so if you go all 100% you are more likely to produce unforced mistakes and give away points for free. Those 70% should be enough (assuming the levels are reasonably close) because your opponent is also adjusting and maybe even more nervous than yourself. As you get more comfortable, play with more power.

I think it is an especially valuable lesson for the first game of the first match of the tournament. Everybody is nervous af there and winning it is a matter of making less mistakes under pressure than your opponent. I used to play those games with full steam only to watch myself missing the contact with the ball on big swings. It is especially dangerous against retrievers because they capitalize on those things very easily.

The whole topic of cutting unforced mistakes in a match is very interesting. It is not just about winning, it is a about not losing in a stupid way, especially to weaker players.

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Tactics Enthusiast

https://youtu.be/of7bwtgwRZY?t=134

What do we think about this stroke? Should it use more elbow like a backhand? More body rotation to whip it? I mean, he seems like a 'OK' player to me but I feel like there could be more to it. More wrist if anything. Maybe Timo has found the proper balance of being compact and consistency with enough spin?

Maybe he should hit it over the table much sooner?

I really would like to have a good solution vs this type of ball.

I found another stroke that is actually a little different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY99KbE ... 2E4yeiSl7o
I notice how much trouble he has doing this but little weight transfer. More elbow than the previous video.

You do need to come back to the USA at some point.

I know a club in Vegas that might let you do some training. Plenty of options on the west coast of the USA. Indeed this time of year would have been a good time since Vegas flight/hotels are cheaper.

Maybe get NL out of retirement just for a get together?!

Watch the Tenergy logo on the front of his shirt. Even in slowmo, you'll be able to see how quickly it spins up and around to propel his arm up. Timo's torso move is so short and sharp, most people would overlook it as they watch the arm. His chest is spinning up whilst his arm is lagging to create whip.

Timo's forehand is perhaps the spinniest in the world as many top players comment. His upward torso movement happens at incredible speed even though it is short. It isn't the fastest though because he uses a bent arm and doesn't get the same forward torso rotation as the top Chinese. Using a longer arm is a better strategy, imo.

Is this a forehand you should copy? If you understand that it's the stomach, back and core muscles which drive this shot, you should do the same. If you are focused on his arm, then you are looking in the wrong place. I'd recommend you start by using a more exaggerated body movement and a longer arm. Not many players can more so quickly over a short distance.

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I'm dumping this on you to make it happen Russ.

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