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PostPosted: 08 Aug 2018, 12:04 
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Retriever wrote:
From a previous post he and / or HH are on or have started up a separate, nameless, forum.
Hmmm... separate, nameless forums are pretty difficult to access. I wonder how that works?


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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 01:13 
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Fwiw, I just got coached to keep my shoulders and hips in line so my fh backswing is massively shorter and recovery faster. This is explicitly copying Mima Ito style since I changed to SP backhand.


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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 01:22 
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BRS, did your level drop after switching to SP backhand anyhow? Or you transitioned smoothly?

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 09:02 
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fastmover wrote:
BRS, did your level drop after switching to SP backhand anyhow? Or you transitioned smoothly?


Ask me in two weeks, I am playing my first rated tournaments since changing to SP on the 11th and 18th. Judging by club, league, and camp play (a lot of play) my level initially dropped to around 1800 when I switched, so about 90 points. That was with spinpips red. After I switched to Moristo I feel like I am playing my same level around 1900. The spinpips is a lot harder to control speed-wise than moristo.

Optimistically I feel like when I actually learn to play properly with SP, hitting first and spinning only when unhittable, my level will rise a fair bit. This is considering I essentially had no backhand attack before.

Complicating the SP evaluation a bit is that I will play the tournanents with fastarc g-1 on my fh instead of t05. I tried it Sunday and I like it. I'm going full Mima Ito except for the ACI blade, too expensive at the rate I damage blades. G1 is the first non-tenergy rubber I've tested that made it past the first day.

Still I expect to perform poorly in the tournaments. I wouldn't let that discourage anyone from trying SP. I think the 40+ ball really supports SP style again. And one thing I learned at B75 is nobody, not even really good players, likes that hard-hit SP ball when it is really done right. They hate it.


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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 10:52 
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birchamboi wrote:
Retriever wrote:
From a previous post he and / or HH are on or have started up a separate, nameless, forum.
Hmmm... separate, nameless forums are pretty difficult to access. I wonder how that works?


I actually laughed out loud at this. It's true that Heming and I speak a lot on the phone, if this is what you are referring to.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 11:12 
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birchamboi wrote:
fastmover wrote:
I have a question about the service return though. I try to loop all long and half-long serves, and when doing so, I try to accommodate the biggest body turn possible to generate heavy spin. The result is that sometimes I win the point outright by looping heavy, and sometimes fail to recover for the next shot due to the big body motion. The proportion depends on the opponent's ability to block heavy spin.
There is a lot of conversation about this over on mytabletennis.net - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=83224&PN=1&title=li-sun-say-no-to-waist-rotation. This is part of a broader discussion about a growing trend towards close to the table, off the bounce counter hitting a la Harimoto Tomokazu and Mima Ito, which relies upon the ability to recover much more quickly than is possible with huge body rotation.

For the record, I'd love to hear what Brett Clarke has to say on the whole body rotation thing, but I'm starting to wonder if he's disappeared from the forum.


This is one of those discussions that doesn't have an easy response. I made a video called Form Follow Function (LTT68) where I tried to address these types of questions.

Btw, Harimoto's forehand swing is bigger than 99% of club players, especially when he has time https://youtu.be/1sGQz5Xp7uE?t=84 Early this year I made a video for young Australian players, encouraging them to use more body rotation and Harimoto and Henzell where the examples I used. I overlaid the 2 players to show how much more body rotation Harimoto was using. Don't worry, Henzell was fine with me doing it.

Getting back to the serve return question. Form still follows function. If it's a high slow serve, your swing should be totally massive. If it's a fast low serve, your swing should be miniature. When someone tells you to have a 'compact' swing against an easy ball, it's a worry. It's also a worry when someone tells you to have a huge swing against a fast ball. These 2 examples are the same type of misunderstanding, in my opinion.

Against a half long serve, it's often difficult to use a lot of body rotation and you need some LTT93 stomach and back lifting to go with some a little torso rotation. Again, the size of the swing should match the situation. Are you late to the ball? If so, the swing may be more compact. Are you early to the ball and is it a little higher? Hit it for a winner with more torso rotation and a good size swing.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 11:35 
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Retriever wrote:
birchamboi wrote:
Quote:
For the record, I'd love to hear what Brett Clarke has to say on the whole body rotation thing, but I'm starting to wonder if he's disappeared from the forum.


From a previous post he and / or HH are on or have started up a separate, nameless, forum. He has made a couple of comments here in the last couple of days. I am also not sure whether his commitments to TT Australia may be a drag on how much time he spends here and also the pace of new eponymous videos he announces (used to announce?) here.


I am no longer the coach of the Australian men's team and I don't work for TTA. I'm doing some free coaching in Malaysia at the moment. Here's the club https://www.facebook.com/StarEliteTable ... ingCentre/

I'm practicing my coaching, if that makes sense? I want to be sharp for my next job and there's no better way than working in a club full of endless kids. I've always enjoyed the feeling that comes with coaching for free too. If you aren't getting paid, you know why you are there.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 12:48 
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Below is the end of Mima Ito's backswing against a push. The opponent can probably see a little of her forehand rubber at the very end. As a very rough guide, I recommend that your opponent can see a little forehand rubber. Many club players struggle to get back this far. I still say that form should follow function. This shot was against a standard push when she had time.

I used Mima as an example as she stays very close to the table and that requires compact shots in general. It's pretty obvious but, the further you move back from the table, the larger your shots/rotation should be. Mima's height and close to the table playing style requires her to swing shorter.

Attachment:
mima backswing against push.JPG
mima backswing against push.JPG [ 36.59 KiB | Viewed 788 times ]

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 12:50 
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Below is the end of Mima Ito's backswing against a push. The opponent can probably see a little of her forehand rubber at the very end. As a very rough guide, I recommend that your opponent can see a little forehand rubber. Many club players struggle to get back this far. I still say that form should follow function. This shot was against a standard push when she had time.

I used Mima as an example as she stays very close to the table and that requires compact shots in general. It's pretty obvious but, the further you move back from the table, the larger your shots/rotation should be. Mima's height and close to the table playing style requires her to swing shorter.

Attachment:
mima backswing against push.JPG
mima backswing against push.JPG [ 36.59 KiB | Viewed 788 times ]

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 23:07 
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To be clear, I was asking in the context of looping a reasonably low and spinny half-long serve. Are there any clips around of pros playing this shot? There is some relevant footage in LTT71, but I'd like to see a more realistic scenario.

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PostPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 00:52 
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I smell fresh content.

This is what I need to get back into the swing of things.


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PostPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 01:18 
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fastmover wrote:
To be clear, I was asking in the context of looping a reasonably low and spinny half-long serve. Are there any clips around of pros playing this shot? There is some relevant footage in LTT71, but I'd like to see a more realistic scenario.


There are lots of factors in every situation. Generally, it would be a short swing here and there may be very little torso rotation. It may just be a small lifting motion of the torso to send the arm up vertically. I'm sure you can find lots of examples watching Pros play.

I watched the first 20 points you played in the 5 set video you posted here. The average length of your points is 2.5 hits and that includes serve. Don't worry, it was the same in the first set between Timo Boll and Ma Long in their last match (I randomly chose this set). Average hits per rally (including serve) almost never get above 4 in match play, regardless of the player's level. A 3.3 - 3.8 average is normally about right for Pros. It's different if there is a defensive player involved of course.

If the above paragraph is even close to true, how do feel about recovery? What should one practice most? I must admit, it feels terrible when you play a shot and you aren't ready for the next one. It sticks in our memories and we feel silly. We can all vividly remember every one of them post-match. But is this really a serious problem which players are faced with in 2.5 hit rally matches?

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PostPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 01:31 
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The issue I described usually happens when playing someone > 1800 USATT, especially who know me very well and are already adjusted my spin level. But Brett, you could be right that those points could be just cherry-picked by my brain because they felt very embarrassing. After all, aren't we supposed to win if we attack first? :)

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PostPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 02:12 
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fastmover wrote:
The issue I described usually happens when playing someone > 1800 USATT. But Brett, you could be right that those points could be just cherry-picked by my brain because they felt very embarrassing. After all, aren't we supposed to win if we attack first? :)


It's an interesting topic for sure. There's no definitive way to measure the importance of recovery, so it can be debated by almost anyone. I just want to give you something to think about...my perspective.

I can tell you that I literally never once considered recovery when I played. I just tried to win the point and dealt with the ball if it come back. I never considered taking the pace or spin off the ball because I might have to play another shot. Maybe this was my problem. Who knows, right? I certainly wasn't a fantastic player and I was a 2.5 hit rally player on my best day. I can also tell you that I have never said the word 'recovery' to a high level player I've coached. Well at least I can't remember saying it. It specifically means I've never asked a player to compromise a shot because the ball might come back.

When I think about my worst times playing, I imagine myself getting blocked off (blocked down in the US). I make a strong forehand and they block to my backhand = ugly feeling. Am I forgetting all the times I made a strong attack and it didn't come back? Almost certainly, right? I did win more matches than I lost so my strategy worked somewhat often.

If I play Ma Long and I make a strong attack (unlikely), he is going to make me look very bad. He's just a much better player. If I play an 1800 player and make a strong attack, it will be good enough to win the point 90% of the time because I'm a better player. Just because a stronger player can exploit you, doesn't mean you've got a poor strategy or you are on the wrong track. Making strong attacks is rarely the wrong move against anyone.

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PostPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 04:51 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
fastmover wrote:
To be clear, I was asking in the context of looping a reasonably low and spinny half-long serve. Are there any clips around of pros playing this shot? There is some relevant footage in LTT71, but I'd like to see a more realistic scenario.


There are lots of factors in every situation. Generally, it would be a short swing here and there may be very little torso rotation. It may just be a small lifting motion of the torso to send the arm up vertically. I'm sure you can find lots of examples watching Pros play.

I watched the first 20 points you played in the 5 set video you posted here. The average length of your points is 2.5 hits and that includes serve. Don't worry, it was the same in the first set between Timo Boll and Ma Long in their last match (I randomly chose this set). Average hits per rally (including serve) almost never get above 4 in match play, regardless of the player's level. A 3.3 - 3.8 average is normally about right for Pros. It's different if there is a defensive player involved of course.

If the above paragraph is even close to true, how do feel about recovery? What should one practice most? I must admit, it feels terrible when you play a shot and you aren't ready for the next one. It sticks in our memories and we feel silly. We can all vividly remember every one of them post-match. But is this really a serious problem which players are faced with in 2.5 hit rally matches?


A 2.5 shot average suggests almost 50% of points get to the 4th ball, so potentially the second attack. Lots of serve and receive errors brings the average down. Clearly everyone reading this should practice serve and receive more than we do, no argument there. But I think your statistical argument is not so strong.

Recovery is a problem for many 1800-ish players. For me, I lose a lot of sets to 2000 - 2100 players at 8 or better. If I got blocked off on 3+ points where I had the first attack, that's a serious problem. If I had better serves and receives that would probably help even more than recovery (or fh-bh transition). But what skill is realistically easier to improve?


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