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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2018, 03:27 
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fastmover wrote:
I have to say that I don't like Harimoto's forehand

1) He swings with a bent arm
2) I might be wrong, but it seems that he uses his shoulder quite a lot
3) IMHO he rotates his waist way too much. If Li Sun is right that the excessive rotation of the waist leads to the lower back injury in the future, then the kid is going to have troubles in the future


I think that it's Harimoto's backhand not forehand that does the maximum damage.


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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2018, 05:29 
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I was wondering if Harimoto's forehand bent arm allows him to be stronger on balls to his elbow. He has less time than most as he is usually closer to the table? He adds power from the large body rotation but looses a lot of power from the bent arm?


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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2018, 13:18 
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fastmover wrote:
I have to say that I don't like Harimoto's forehand

1) He swings with a bent arm
2) I might be wrong, but it seems that he uses his shoulder quite a lot
3) IMHO he rotates his waist way too much. If Li Sun is right that the excessive rotation of the waist leads to the lower back injury in the future, then the kid is going to have troubles in the future


I like Harimoto's forehand a lot. Maybe his arm isn't perfectly straight, but it's definitively close enough. His torso rotation great and it's a fantastic example I use everyday along with others. There is nothing better than showing juniors how a 15 year old is able to spin his body and beat the world's best.

Do you really think you'd be doing Harimoto a favor by telling him to limit his rotation or to just use a small hip movement against junk? There are good reasons why this kid started beating some of the world's best at the age of 13 yrs. Telling someone to only use a small hip movement is equal to telling someone to never drive their car more than 30 mph, regardless of which road they are on.

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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2018, 13:29 
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maurice101 wrote:
I was wondering if Harimoto's forehand bent arm allows him to be stronger on balls to his elbow. He has less time than most as he is usually closer to the table? He adds power from the large body rotation but looses a lot of power from the bent arm?


Is this the bent arm we are refering to, because it's pretty close to straight when he has time? https://youtu.be/1sGQz5Xp7uE?t=83 You wouldn't want to go much straighter than that against world-class blocking.

I have been advocating straighter arms and hip/torso rotation for a long time. I'm just surprised that everyone sees something different when they watch this kid. I've spent a lot of time watching him live in training halls and it all looks good to me.

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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2018, 13:37 
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BRS wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
maurice101 wrote:
Xu Xin has such a nice forehand. But I do see on his takeback the bat passes his hip or leg quite close? If I look at my video of my forehand there is a much larger distance between bat and the hip on takeback.


If you swing back closer to your body, you save time on the backswing and maybe you even get less air resistance. I'm reluctantly going to make a video about it.

I can see a massive problem with this this upcoming lesson. One of the biggest problems that players have is hitting the ball too close to their body with a bent arm. LTT102 (or so) is going be a bit confusing, but it will be the truth. I'll attempt to make it as simple as possible.


Cause and effect? If the ball is too close to me because I anticipated poorly or didn't move or both, I'm going to execute some crap swing. My brain tells my body to touch the rubber to the ball and my body makes it happen by any means necessary. The problem isn't the swing, it's that my body was in the wrong place relative to the ball. You can't fix the effect, only the cause.

Although one thing I am trying to learn is not to try for a high-quality ball when I'm not in decent position. Good-not-great players are smart enough to just play a safe ball back with placement, stay alive in the rally, and try to recover their position to be more active with the next ball.


Good post BRS.

It's a challenge to be the right distance from the ball. It's something you need to fight for and it starts in training.

I also agree about needing good position to make big shots. There is nothing wrong with spinning the ball more when you are out of position. You don't need to hit every ball hard.

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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2018, 14:15 
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Harimoto does not rotate hard only against junk, he rotates hard against pretty much everything unless he is out of position or jammed. I actually start to think that using a small hip + waist rotation + a bit of LTT93 + a reasonably unbent arm is good enough against 80% of the balls. Of course, against junk go all LTT47. But against a reasonable block or push hip/waist combination should be enough.

My rationale is that a reasonably fit human being should have enough power in those muscles to make a quality shot with the rotation of shoulders for, say, 60 degrees. So why rotate for 90 or 110 (like Harimoto) for extra power and get jammed with the next shot in the rally (like me).

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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2018, 14:54 
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fastmover wrote:
Harimoto does not rotate hard only against junk, he rotates hard against pretty much everything unless he is out of position or jammed. I actually start to think that using a small hip + waist rotation + a bit of LTT93 + a reasonably unbent arm is good enough against 80% of the balls. Of course, against junk go all LTT47. But against a reasonable block or push hip/waist combination should be enough.

My rationale is that a reasonably fit human being should have enough power in those muscles to make a quality shot with the rotation of shoulders for, say, 60 degrees. So why rotate for 90 or 110 (like Harimoto) for extra power and get jammed with the next shot in the rally (like me).


This is a reasonable post.

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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2018, 22:32 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
fastmover wrote:
Harimoto does not rotate hard only against junk, he rotates hard against pretty much everything unless he is out of position or jammed. I actually start to think that using a small hip + waist rotation + a bit of LTT93 + a reasonably unbent arm is good enough against 80% of the balls. Of course, against junk go all LTT47. But against a reasonable block or push hip/waist combination should be enough.

My rationale is that a reasonably fit human being should have enough power in those muscles to make a quality shot with the rotation of shoulders for, say, 60 degrees. So why rotate for 90 or 110 (like Harimoto) for extra power and get jammed with the next shot in the rally (like me).


This is a reasonable post.


From a tactics standpoint this makes me confused. Vs a much weaker player you can go for high power because the ball won't come back, and if you miss a lot you can switch to playing safely and still win. Vs a peer you need to balance what power is needed to end a point or put him out of position to win on the next ball, but maintsin high consistency. Those are simple.

But vs a considerably stronger player what is the outcome-maximizing tactic? Is it best to accept less consistency and try to generste enough power/quality to end points or put him off balance? Or should you stay within what you are capable of hitting consistently, because even your best shots will come back from a superior player, so you have to wxpect to make 3 or 4 in a row?

This is like a real-time question for me since I am in DC for a few weeks and playing a lot of 2000-2200 players in league matches. I know nobody cares how many practice matches you win, but I still want to maximize my chances, just for confidence if nothing else.

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2018, 11:58 
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BRS wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
fastmover wrote:
Harimoto does not rotate hard only against junk, he rotates hard against pretty much everything unless he is out of position or jammed. I actually start to think that using a small hip + waist rotation + a bit of LTT93 + a reasonably unbent arm is good enough against 80% of the balls. Of course, against junk go all LTT47. But against a reasonable block or push hip/waist combination should be enough.

My rationale is that a reasonably fit human being should have enough power in those muscles to make a quality shot with the rotation of shoulders for, say, 60 degrees. So why rotate for 90 or 110 (like Harimoto) for extra power and get jammed with the next shot in the rally (like me).


This is a reasonable post.


From a tactics standpoint this makes me confused. Vs a much weaker player you can go for high power because the ball won't come back, and if you miss a lot you can switch to playing safely and still win. Vs a peer you need to balance what power is needed to end a point or put him out of position to win on the next ball, but maintsin high consistency. Those are simple.

But vs a considerably stronger player what is the outcome-maximizing tactic? Is it best to accept less consistency and try to generste enough power/quality to end points or put him off balance? Or should you stay within what you are capable of hitting consistently, because even your best shots will come back from a superior player, so you have to wxpect to make 3 or 4 in a row?

This is like a real-time question for me since I am in DC for a few weeks and playing a lot of 2000-2200 players in league matches. I know nobody cares how many practice matches you win, but I still want to maximize my chances, just for confidence if nothing else.


These are the hardest types of questions to answer as there are endless variables. My overarching response is just try to win matches with the things you do well. Serve short and put a lot of spin on the 3rd ball. Loop long serves and continue the pressure. Try to be the first to attack if practical.

How hard you hit each ball is going to be determined by infinite variables. I will say this though - take every easy opportunity to play strong.

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2018, 12:10 
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LTT100 is now available on ttEDGE.com

Serving with 'kick' is one of the hardest things to do in TT, so hopefully LTT100 helps.

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2018, 20:25 
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I recently became a premium member on ttedge and finding the content very useful so far. I've always struggled with executing topspin serves so the latest addition has been particularly useful, now to try it out in the training hall.

I was wondering if you could comment on these two different serves by Koki Niwa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N6y5uTVRYg (side topspin serve)

He appears to be folding his torso here and I can't see a snapping wrist motion or the lifting of his hips. So I guess he must be lifting his elbow slightly to generate the topspin. Could we assume then that there isn't that much spin on this serve?

Here's the backspin sidespin version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfYMwjJSPWc

Again, he doesn't appear to be snapping his wrist back and forward, or am I just not seeing it correctly? It looks like his wrist doesn't bend back but does go forward.


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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2018, 23:20 
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Richfs wrote:
I recently became a premium member on ttedge and finding the content very useful so far. I've always struggled with executing topspin serves so the latest addition has been particularly useful, now to try it out in the training hall.

I was wondering if you could comment on these two different serves by Koki Niwa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N6y5uTVRYg (side topspin serve)

He appears to be folding his torso here and I can't see a snapping wrist motion or the lifting of his hips. So I guess he must be lifting his elbow slightly to generate the topspin. Could we assume then that there isn't that much spin on this serve?

Here's the backspin sidespin version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfYMwjJSPWc

Again, he doesn't appear to be snapping his wrist back and forward, or am I just not seeing it correctly? It looks like his wrist doesn't bend back but does go forward.


Hey Richfs. Great to see you here!

Niwa is folding his torso on both serves whilst using a little hip rotation. He's able to fold whilst lifting his elbow enough to get the ball jumping forward with topspin. That little bit of hip rotation probably helps more than you think and the elbow lift would be tiny and barely noticeable to the untrained eye.

Ma Long folds on every serve too which makes sense. His opponents would notice if he was unfolding on topspin serves, especially if he was exaggerating like I am in LTT100.

Once you can make the ball kick you can do whatever you want. For 25 years, I've struggled to teach club players how to make the ball kick in general. LTT100 is where I'm at. Give it a shot and see if it works for you and send me the footage if you want feedback.

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PostPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 03:00 
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What is the technically correct way to serve down the line? I occasionally realized that my diagonal pendulum serve can stay low rather easily, but the parallel one bounces too high, especially when going for extra spin.

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PostPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 08:41 
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Hi guys. I took a break from playing after early July and the US Open tourney. This might be more of a blog post but this is also the thread I usually talk in and I have some input about the current topic.

After playing this point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzDN9JNRgrE

My back muscles basically froze up. If you look closely it was around the net. I'm not much of a retriever so that was nice. After about a month of taking it easy my back felt much better and I started playing again. Today I can say I'm about to where I was back in early July.

I'm working on a failure video from these matches and hopefully will get that out soon.

My end result in the tourney was interesting but not progressive in terms of rating (I think I lost 1 point).
I beat everyone who I should beat and I lost to everyone who I should lose to, based on rating.
All of the players (1500 to 1800 rating) were able to do similar tactics that had me struggling for points.
Before I go into the problems I do want to make a little positive side note: progressing past this group of 1500-1750ish seems quite possible with some hard work. It won't be easy but I can put a majority of these of players on the defensive. I have the tools I just have yet to put them together. I also felt like I was a better player than 6 months prior but it just did not show up in the 4 or 5 matches.

Here are what I think the problems were and some possible solutions I came up with.

1. They were able to read my serve and make decent returns. Some great returns some weaker returns but enough to where the 3rd ball wasn't a free point over and over. Players who I beat always had REAL trouble with my serve. I'm a 900 player once someone returns well.
2. They were all pretty athletic, were able to block my forehand and my follow up forehand(s) either went for too much or not enough. So I was either not good enough with my shots or not consistent enough. They were all able to get back and 'fish' with quite reasonable success.
3. They all played in a league weekly. Some of them had weekly coaching also. I asked and searched these things. They were much more 'battle ready'.

While I'm sure there is more I think this is a low hanging fruit of the similarities.
1 is obvious - either need to serve better or get better people to return serve for my 3rd ball practice.
3 is obvious - I need to play better people more often and in a more competitive setting. (this one honestly seems difficult with my current 'life' situation)

2 is the toughie. Do I go for more power/placement/spin at the risk of consistency or do I go for more consistency? In a little analysis of my own play I've come to the conclusion that my backhand is where I win a lot of points still despite all of my work on the forehand. To that end I'm working on doing more with the backhand. More angle, more spin, more flat, depending on the situation. I'm happy with the results I'm seeing by going for more on the 'natural side'.
The forehand opener is actually pretty good when going cross court. I'm happy with it but the truth is a lot of people have better forehands and even those get blocked back. From there I'm not winning a lot of points. I'm working on 3rd ball forehand opener -> 5th ball to another location, such as middle or down the line. It's pretty hard for me to REALLY commit to a second big swing after a pretty big opener. In the end the forehand needs to be better overall.

First shot quality is nice to have and beats most everyone I play against at the clubs I go to. I'll need 5th and maybe 7th finish ball quality to really move ahead. Of course 'more' on the 3rd ball is possible too.


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PostPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 11:14 
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Sorry to hear about your back. My two cents:

Go for more consistency, as in, can make four consecutive loops to different places routinely. At higher levels people receive well. They won't give you lots of easy 3rd ball kills. You need a quality 3rd ball to set up a 5th or 7th.

Develop a rock-solid fh down the line. A quality but not crazy fh to a righties backhand wins many points. They are shifting to their fh to cover that angle, and you can loop outside their bh reach.

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