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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 04:07 
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Goals, nerves, competition. It's all pretty good stuff for a hobby.

I get very nervous before a competition and everything Brett says on the topic is exactly how I feel. It's nice to know others have the same problem.

So in Las Vegas traditionally we have two tourneys a year, two of the biggest in the USA. Last year we did not have one in December because it was moved to another area. At first I was pretty annoyed with that but you know I really enjoyed my practice time the last 6 months, knowing no tourney will define my player/person/ego. I've improved my serve, my forehand, my blocking, my understanding of spin, my reading of serves and even "feel" for the ball.

A couple of weeks ago I went to a new to me club in Cali and it ended up being purely Koreans. Very little English...but one older lady recognized me from those big scary Las Vegas tourneys and wanted to practice with me. We did so and others got to watch my game. From there she handed me off to the better players in the club for training and matches. My skills are at a point that in general I can go into a TT club and have fun and be competitive and people actually want to play me because they see technically sound strokes. They see I am willing to block and do drills. I'm even willing to offer up bits of advice which people are generally very receptive to.

I'm not sure where I am going with this post but yeah ratings aren't everything and sometimes not being in the crucible of competition can be liberating.


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 04:23 
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I think we all have one goal in common which is that we want to improve and become a better player. Now, how does one know that he's become a better player?

Ratings could be one way to measure this. We all know that the rating system has its drawbacks, it isn't as objective as we'd like it to be, etc. Nevertheless, a player's rating indicates how good he is - this is why people tend to get attached to their ratings.

What could be other ways to tell that someone's gotten better?
Technique is kinda subjective in the way that my strokes may be looking better but I'm still losing to that guy who has no technique at all.
Beating a guy that I used to lose to may be a measure of success. But if that guy is improving at the same rate that I am, I will never beat him although both he and I are becoming better.

What I want to say is that it is hard to just focus on the process and do not pay attention to the rating or results since I may not be seeing any signs of improvement then.


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 04:23 
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BRS wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
Or consistent mindlessness practice. In the end, the goal is to be able to give yourself the best chance of playing your best table tennis when it matters. Mindfulness does help but so can mindlessness. But these are all words - I have always considered flow a state of mindlessless but others may consider it mindfulness. So my goal is still the same- to improve my chances of playing my best table tennis when it matters.


Given the choice I would take mindlessness every time. When I am mindful during play I tend to have my mind on a) the score b) my desire to win c) my fear of losing or d) how crap my xyz technique was on the last point. When I am mindless my technique is often still crap, but since my mind is fully occupied with seeing the ball and hitting it, lots of times good things happen too.

What gets me down sometimes is when something happens that highlights the enormity of the gap between what I need and want to do to get to the level I want to play at, and the time and resources I am actually applying. Going to TT camps is my favorite thing in life, but it really brings home the problem. It kind of feels like walking along the shoulder of a fast-moving road. My semi-educated guess is that if I applied 1,000 hours a year for the next four years to good quality training and matches, and stayed healthy, I'd be a hell of a lot better than I am now. But I'm only doing maybe 500 hours a year, and at least half of that is worthless. It can get depressing, when progress is so slow it's imperceptible over long stretches, months. Realistically that's a big reason I switched to SP BH, because I was frustrated, and when you go from no experience to some the jolt of progress is exhilarating. Of course now I'm eight months into it, and diminishing returns are back.

I think the psychological pressure on hobby players and pros or serious juniors are very different in degree, but not so much in kind. Hobby players play a lot of matches that don't matter, but we all reach a level from where it is very difficult to improve, so our focus shifts from development to results. And focusing on results brings disappointment with it. Real players reach a point where they basically have no chance to surpass the people ahead of them. Like the example of richfs' league teammate who was a top 50 England junior. That is an amazing level, but what were his chances of ever playing for England? And what would he have had to do to beat out Pitchford or Walker (or whoever), considering how hard they must have been working themselves, to win against their targets, who were other internationals. And if the only logical step left for you that remotely justifies the effort, is in practical terms impossible, why do you keep going?


I think it goes back to whether you think there is any value/meaning/fun/reward in what you are doing if you are not the best at it. If something can only be rewarding if you are a top national team player, that is going to be a tough thing to do. He

Pros have their results determine important things like money etc. And I think it is the borderline people that struggle the most. At the Teams, someone said he had never heard of Ricardo Walther. I replied that is what happens when you are the 7th best player or so on the German national team (he beat Boll twice in November/December) and in winning all his matches at the NA Teams this year was hardly challenged. Playing behind Boll, Dima, Steger, Franziska, Filus and now Duda can't be fun. Or think about how Xu Xin or Fan Zhendong may feel sometimes when ZJK was on the team. Definitely not easy. But it is clear that it always happens and has to be put in context.

Liu Guoliang talked about Wang Hao feeling so paralyzed by the fear of losing that he didn't want to play. So LGL tried to set the bar so low that WH would climb over it - he said WH would only need to win one round to make his goal for the tournament. Of course, after winning that match, the competitive juices started flowing again. Of course this is one of the greatest players of all time we are talking about here.

How you frame the issue matters a lot. I don't try so hard to make framing an issue of right or wrong but I try to make it an issue of whatever enables you to play your best TT.

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 05:25 
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ziv wrote:
I think we all have one goal in common which is that we want to improve and become a better player. Now, how does one know that he's become a better player?

Ratings could be one way to measure this. We all know that the rating system has its drawbacks, it isn't as objective as we'd like it to be, etc. Nevertheless, a player's rating indicates how good he is - this is why people tend to get attached to their ratings.

What could be other ways to tell that someone's gotten better?
Technique is kinda subjective in the way that my strokes may be looking better but I'm still losing to that guy who has no technique at all.
Beating a guy that I used to lose to may be a measure of success. But if that guy is improving at the same rate that I am, I will never beat him although both he and I are becoming better.

What I want to say is that it is hard to just focus on the process and do not pay attention to the rating or results since I may not be seeing any signs of improvement then.


For me better means being able to do stuff you couldn't do before. And good means being able to do that stuff reliably, and under pressure.

It's annoying to be in a situation where you know you really need to do something, like serve short, or bh open vs push, or make three fh loops in a row, or read the spin on a serve, and you can't. And of course it feels great if sometime later you realize you can do that thing. Unfortunately the way our brains are wired, by then we have usually moved on to the next thing we can't do, without spending much time savoring the can.

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 05:56 
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ziv wrote:
I think we all have one goal in common which is that we want to improve and become a better player. Now, how does one know that he's become a better player?

Ratings could be one way to measure this. We all know that the rating system has its drawbacks, it isn't as objective as we'd like it to be, etc. Nevertheless, a player's rating indicates how good he is - this is why people tend to get attached to their ratings.

What could be other ways to tell that someone's gotten better?
Technique is kinda subjective in the way that my strokes may be looking better but I'm still losing to that guy who has no technique at all.
Beating a guy that I used to lose to may be a measure of success. But if that guy is improving at the same rate that I am, I will never beat him although both he and I are becoming better.

What I want to say is that it is hard to just focus on the process and do not pay attention to the rating or results since I may not be seeing any signs of improvement then.



I'm actually of the opinion that if you play enough tournament matches (even league ones would do) and play a representative sample of opponents, then rating is a very objective measure of how good you are as a player: it accounts for the quality of your technique, serves, receives, tactics, mental game, style matchups etc. Someone ( NFL coach?) once said: "you are as good as your W-L record".

Which is to say that I'm mostly using ratings as a measure of my progress, which I hope is is different from being obsessed/attached to it ;) .

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 06:23 
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pgpg wrote:


I'm actually of the opinion that if you play enough tournament matches (even league ones would do) and play a representative sample of opponents, then rating is a very objective measure of how good you are as a player: it accounts for the quality of your technique, serves, receives, tactics, mental game, style matchups etc. Someone ( NFL coach?) once said: "you are as good as your W-L record".

Which is to say that I'm mostly using ratings as a measure of my progress, which I hope is is different from being obsessed/attached to it ;) .


What about the guy who does 1 tourney a year and does 6 matches?


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 06:26 
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Rating isn't objective in the way that it doesn't show the objective strength of a player but only shows how he compares to other players. Player's strength cannot be measured precisely like you'd measure a person's height or weight; it can only be estimated in terms of "stronger than someone" or "weaker than someone".

Certainly, the more a player plays in tournaments against different opponents, the closer to objective his rating becomes. However, if one only plays at one club and more or less against the same players of a limited number (i.e. within a closed system), his rating might be not even close to his real strength.


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 06:42 
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ziv wrote:
I think we all have one goal in common which is that we want to improve and become a better player. Now, how does one know that he's become a better player?

Ratings could be one way to measure this. We all know that the rating system has its drawbacks, it isn't as objective as we'd like it to be, etc. Nevertheless, a player's rating indicates how good he is - this is why people tend to get attached to their ratings.

What could be other ways to tell that someone's gotten better?
Technique is kinda subjective in the way that my strokes may be looking better but I'm still losing to that guy who has no technique at all.
Beating a guy that I used to lose to may be a measure of success. But if that guy is improving at the same rate that I am, I will never beat him although both he and I are becoming better.

What I want to say is that it is hard to just focus on the process and do not pay attention to the rating or results since I may not be seeing any signs of improvement then.


You make a good point . The devil is in the details. The issue is managing goals and expectations and putting them in proper perspective. Processed have goal states. We just want to make sure we are focusing on the important stuff. Ratings can hurt that by overvaluing match results and undervaluing long term technical development. Some players avoid opponents to protect ratings.

In some countries coaches put pips on a players racket to accelerate their results. This will give a higher rating but may not be best for long term development.

All truths have context.

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 06:46 
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Ratings are also a very convenient vehicle for bullying people.

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 06:51 
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NextLevel wrote:
Richfs wrote:
Very good post NL.. lots of great posts!

It makes perfect sense to focus on the process.. but it's in the heat of the moment and when I need/should focus on the process the most when it's the most difficult. It's very difficult to truly internalize it. Consistent mindfulness practice might be useful.


Or consistent mindlessness practice. In the end, the goal is to be able to give yourself the best chance of playing your best table tennis when it matters. Mindfulness does help but so can mindlessness. But these are all words - I have always considered flow a state of mindlessless but others may consider it mindfulness. So my goal is still the same- to improve my chances of playing my best table tennis when it matters.

That is why training matters. And I always find it interesting when someone who does not train enough to know his game complains about its quality. But it is usually a disconnect between what we think learning and mastery is like and what it truly is like.

Returning to play again had been a helpful reality check . It is likely aspects of my game are back to 2015 before I started working with Brett since I can't move (and before 2015 I didn't move - with pride). But I wasn't chopped liver back then just a 1900 player.

Thanks for the kind words.


Yes, you're right. I think what I really mean is mindlessness. As you say these are just words so let me give you an example.

I'd like to not get as consumed by thoughts and irritated when I'm playing poorly. I'll play a couple of bad shots and after each of them I'll talk to myself negatively, often without even realizing it. Even when I do realize it, I feel powerless. When I'm playing well, in the zone - in a state of mindlessness I'll still play the occasional very poor shot but the way I'll be playing overall will be good enough that none of those thoughts will come to mind. I feel like I have zero control over when either of these situations will occur. I don't know what the best thing is to do when it happens.. accept the situation? What else can one do? Telling myself to think about the process doesn't seem to do much in the heat of the moment.. I just don't know.


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 07:03 
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NextLevel wrote:
All truths have context.


So much Zen these days.

Ratings can sure become a trap for development. Just work on the game you want to do. Ratings should only be considered for match making purposes. So you have good matches.

I want to play like the pros. I won't ever play like the pros but I'm not giving up the dream because being 1100 or 2100 rating doesn't REALLY matter.


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 07:12 
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pgpg wrote:
ziv wrote:
I think we all have one goal in common which is that we want to improve and become a better player. Now, how does one know that he's become a better player?

Ratings could be one way to measure this. We all know that the rating system has its drawbacks, it isn't as objective as we'd like it to be, etc. Nevertheless, a player's rating indicates how good he is - this is why people tend to get attached to their ratings.

What could be other ways to tell that someone's gotten better?
Technique is kinda subjective in the way that my strokes may be looking better but I'm still losing to that guy who has no technique at all.
Beating a guy that I used to lose to may be a measure of success. But if that guy is improving at the same rate that I am, I will never beat him although both he and I are becoming better.

What I want to say is that it is hard to just focus on the process and do not pay attention to the rating or results since I may not be seeing any signs of improvement then.



I'm actually of the opinion that if you play enough tournament matches (even league ones would do) and play a representative sample of opponents, then rating is a very objective measure of how good you are as a player: it accounts for the quality of your technique, serves, receives, tactics, mental game, style matchups etc. Someone ( NFL coach?) once said: "you are as good as your W-L record".

Which is to say that I'm mostly using ratings as a measure of my progress, which I hope is is different from being obsessed/attached to it ;) .


The devil is in the details. The thing is that most of us get our ratings high from the adjustment process. Whether that high is objective... let's just say that in the end, all things are subject to interpretation but you and I can reasonably agree and disagree without it amounting to anything of significance.

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 07:17 
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Richfs wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
Richfs wrote:
Very good post NL.. lots of great posts!

It makes perfect sense to focus on the process.. but it's in the heat of the moment and when I need/should focus on the process the most when it's the most difficult. It's very difficult to truly internalize it. Consistent mindfulness practice might be useful.


Or consistent mindlessness practice. In the end, the goal is to be able to give yourself the best chance of playing your best table tennis when it matters. Mindfulness does help but so can mindlessness. But these are all words - I have always considered flow a state of mindlessless but others may consider it mindfulness. So my goal is still the same- to improve my chances of playing my best table tennis when it matters.

That is why training matters. And I always find it interesting when someone who does not train enough to know his game complains about its quality. But it is usually a disconnect between what we think learning and mastery is like and what it truly is like.

Returning to play again had been a helpful reality check . It is likely aspects of my game are back to 2015 before I started working with Brett since I can't move (and before 2015 I didn't move - with pride). But I wasn't chopped liver back then just a 1900 player.

Thanks for the kind words.


Yes, you're right. I think what I really mean is mindlessness. As you say these are just words so let me give you an example.

I'd like to not get as consumed by thoughts and irritated when I'm playing poorly. I'll play a couple of bad shots and after each of them I'll talk to myself negatively, often without even realizing it. Even when I do realize it, I feel powerless. When I'm playing well, in the zone - in a state of mindlessness I'll still play the occasional very poor shot but the way I'll be playing overall will be good enough that none of those thoughts will come to mind. I feel like I have zero control over when either of these situations will occur. I don't know what the best thing is to do when it happens.. accept the situation? What else can one do? Telling myself to think about the process doesn't seem to do much in the heat of the moment.. I just don't know.


Over New Year's I asked some coaches how to work on exactly this problem. Here is one idea they had, which I haven't tried yet, but will. Take a piece of paper, tear it into bits, and roll the bits into little balls. Put the balls of paper in the pocket of your TT shorts on your playing hand side. While you play, every time you catch yourself thinking a judgement instead of sinply observing, take one bit of paper and move it to your other pocket. You have to put your bat down to do that. At the end of the match or day, count how many bits of paper have moved.

This sounds kind of cheesy, and of course it doesn't have to be bits of paper, but I think it might work. At least it can't really hurt anything.

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 07:47 
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wilkinru wrote:
pgpg wrote:


I'm actually of the opinion that if you play enough tournament matches (even league ones would do) and play a representative sample of opponents, then rating is a very objective measure of how good you are as a player: it accounts for the quality of your technique, serves, receives, tactics, mental game, style matchups etc. Someone ( NFL coach?) once said: "you are as good as your W-L record".

Which is to say that I'm mostly using ratings as a measure of my progress, which I hope is is different from being obsessed/attached to it ;) .


What about the guy who does 1 tourney a year and does 6 matches?


Bolded part has your answer: 6 matches is not enough and neither is 1 tournament. I play 200+ league matches in a year, and probably 60+ tournament ones, usually with a good mix of geography for tournaments: local, Westchester, Teams in DC, Aurora Cup in IL etc.

I think it's a 'good enough' sample in my case. If you have a '6 matches per year' scenario - then you have to use some other criteria to evaluate your progress (even none at all) and that's fine. What works for you is all that matters, we are hobbyists here.

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 07:52 
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Richfs wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
Richfs wrote:
Very good post NL.. lots of great posts!

It makes perfect sense to focus on the process.. but it's in the heat of the moment and when I need/should focus on the process the most when it's the most difficult. It's very difficult to truly internalize it. Consistent mindfulness practice might be useful.


Or consistent mindlessness practice. In the end, the goal is to be able to give yourself the best chance of playing your best table tennis when it matters. Mindfulness does help but so can mindlessness. But these are all words - I have always considered flow a state of mindlessless but others may consider it mindfulness. So my goal is still the same- to improve my chances of playing my best table tennis when it matters.

That is why training matters. And I always find it interesting when someone who does not train enough to know his game complains about its quality. But it is usually a disconnect between what we think learning and mastery is like and what it truly is like.

Returning to play again had been a helpful reality check . It is likely aspects of my game are back to 2015 before I started working with Brett since I can't move (and before 2015 I didn't move - with pride). But I wasn't chopped liver back then just a 1900 player.

Thanks for the kind words.


Yes, you're right. I think what I really mean is mindlessness. As you say these are just words so let me give you an example.

I'd like to not get as consumed by thoughts and irritated when I'm playing poorly. I'll play a couple of bad shots and after each of them I'll talk to myself negatively, often without even realizing it. Even when I do realize it, I feel powerless. When I'm playing well, in the zone - in a state of mindlessness I'll still play the occasional very poor shot but the way I'll be playing overall will be good enough that none of those thoughts will come to mind. I feel like I have zero control over when either of these situations will occur. I don't know what the best thing is to do when it happens.. accept the situation? What else can one do? Telling myself to think about the process doesn't seem to do much in the heat of the moment.. I just don't know.


The main thing is to figure out what you do that puts you in a state ie preparedness. BRS provided one and there are many. At one time, I used to pretend I was a baseball hitter . Hitters, after every strike, would sometimes step off the hitting circle and walk around before resuming their stance to take the next pitch. I would go this and then step to the table and dust dirt off my shoulders before serving.

Over time, as you repeat whatever you choose, as long as it is significant enough for you to not just do it without some mindfulness, you will start to associate it with getting optimally prepared to play a point. Ultimately that is all you can ask for.

I also find that this stuff works better when someone actually trains a little. People who don't train and try such things are just trying to get lucky. You can't have a true state of optimal preparedness that you can return to without grounding it in your training.

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