OOAK Table Tennis Forum

I had this strange dream where you used an Oculus rift and some sort of hand sensor paddle where you moved your hand where you thought the ball was going.
It even went to the point where you had to determine short or long on serves - closer to virtual reality table tennis.


I'll be honest I thought the app was kind of stupid at first but now I'm convened it will help against people with reasonably good/standard technique. What would be interesting is that you would "practice" against 2-3 people on the same shot and then after a certain level of mastery you try against someone you've not seen before. I wonder if screen size matters too.


I think this is why when I play someone who has a unusual style, I have real trouble reading where the ball is going. This one guy in a recent tourney had a under the armpit backhand with tons of tick-whip. Really unusual but highly effective because it could smash/loop with huge power. I had no idea where that ball was going. I just guessed.

I agree with your advice. That said, most of us have no formal training in reading the link between body behavior and strokes so most people who take your advice will eventually get better but will continue to struggle at reading anything. At least, studying level one deeply apart from playing it will help them correlate things even if they can't make sense of them.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Hi everyone and thanks for having me on the forum. It’s a pleasure to be involved with ttEDGE – they’re doing a fantastic job of teaching the ins and outs of our wonderful game. I’m really happy to chat about any questions you have, especially those regarding Table Tennis Edge… so here goes!

Great point BRS and the mixed speed changes would be great if we find it’s possible technologically. My view is that inhibitory strength (not moving incorrectly) is a massive part of all sports (E.g. Baseball, see: Nakamoto, & Mori, 2012). Mixed speed changes would definitely push you even further as to your inhibitory control, giving you practice at "waiting for the ball" as you put it. Let me explain...

My research looks particularly at this point (yes, Brett). Controlling (not initiating) motor execution by inhibition is a major factor in being able to react correctly and quickly in table tennis, ie. not going the ‘wrong way’, not responding to ‘fake’ cues (like an open wrist fake movement before changing and hooking a forehand). One of the reasons top players look like they have so much time is that they are not moving until they identify the correct cue, but then they pick up the ‘real’ cues really fast. They continue to inhibit their movement until they execute the vital, and only the essential, movement. It’s not that they have faster motor reactions; it’s that they identify cues faster.

From a brain perspective, the frontal lobe inhibition is constantly firing to stop irrelevant information from triggering unnecessary movement until the relevant cue is spotted and a decision is made to execute a movement. Identifying a relevant cue takes lots of training and experience. So, one of our goals through this game is to give you exposure to that training on a mobile device, against a great player, that you wouldn’t normally have access to - building your training in picking up cues.

I agree with Brett that there will obviously be some differences between players but that the key areas providing the cues will be the same, ie, wrist, shoulder, etc. In my playing days (not so long ago), if I played an evenly matched person for the first time I found that whoever got used to the other’s cues fastest (especially reading service, but also shot direction) eventually won the match. If someone was reading me before I was reading them… big trouble! If you can train your brain in the area that looks after reading opponent’s cues through ‘table tennis edge’, then it should assist you in reading other player’s cues faster in the real world as you will be using that same brain area – especially the next time you play someone new – giving you an edge.

Pay particular attention to focusing on key opponent cue areas early in a match and let your brain adapt more quickly to opponent’s cues in future encounters. You may find that, after having trained with Table Tennis Edge that you will more easily cope with playing people for the first time… I’ll be really interested in hearing about your views on whether or not this is the case.

Hi Trevor and welcome to the forum.

One thing which I think would improve the app would be to actually label the cues that are correct to look for (perhaps with arrows or something). this could be done in level one or in a "pre-level". I think at the moment the game is assuming a player knows what cues to look for, which for the untrained or semi-trained mind is probably not the case. Sure, the more you play the game, the more those queues will become at least subconsciously apparent. But I don't think just leaving them to guesswork is a good start. Clearly explaining them will allow a player to "know" them and identify them more quickly, therefore allowing operation at both conscious and subconscious level.

An adjunct to this could be then to develop the game to have levels with fake cues included, which again can be pointed out to begin with and a player at advanced level to have to identify correct cues and ignore fakes (I suppose this could become a bit like FBI training where you shoot the bad guy and not the hostage lol).

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I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

Thanks again RebornTTEvnglist.

That's quality feedback. Your suggestions are going onto a list for potential updates.

Thanks, Brett

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Dear NextLevel,

Please see the score below. It took me 10 shots. Bring it on!

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Get your 3 wishes here today!
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching

Brett and I have talked about neuro-plasticity before, and it's something I was previously aware of the ideas from my studies and practice of Buddhist thought. Brett asked me to share my recent experience of its application in my training.

In brief, neuro-plasticity describes the ability of neurons and neural networks in the brain to change their connections and behaviour in response to new information, sensory stimulation, development, damage, or dysfunction. This takes place when neurons in the brain sprout and form synapses. As the brain processes sensory information, frequently used synapses are strengthened while unused synapses weaken. Eventually, unused synapses are eliminated completely. So, basically, the brain has the capacity to change on demand.

This happens in table tennis - the brain receives information about desired state (hit the ball over the net) , and information about the delta between desired state and actual state (by how much did we miss?) - and given a solid foundation to which minor adjustments can be made, the brain will change to bring reality and desired state closer together.

I've spent the last week or two trying to develop sound mechanics for the forehand topsin. It's not optimal yet, but it's fairly stable. Yesterday, for a bit of a change, I decided to set up a target at the crossover point, and aim my shots at it. I did this by squashing a ball, and placing at the point I wanted to hit.

Previously, when I've tried to aim at things, I've used pretty large targets - for example an A5 sheet of paper. Even then I've had a very poor record of being able to hit the target. I'm tried pointing myself at the target, I've tried altering stance, altering racket angle, changing the time of hitting the ball... all without significant success,

Yesterday I didn't try to do anything. I just looked at the target and 'thought' that that was where I wanted the ball to go. And within a few shots, it did. It took me probably fifty shots to hit the target such that the crushed ball was knocked off the table, but I was an inch or so away probably 80% of the time. This was a major breakthrough for me, and, I think, demonstrates another example of how the brain is able to make the micro-adjustments needed to deliver a desired outcome. Note that I didn't think at all about the required changes, in terms of racket angle, timing etc. I just let it happen. I couldn't tell you what changes were made... all that happened was that I played my shot, and my brain made the adjustments.

The lesson I've learned from this is that spending time on foundational technique, such that the mechanics of the shot are the same every time, provides a platform upon which to build. I haven't spent any time worrying about whether the ball goes over the net, on the table, or six feet wide. I've just tried to use the correct mechanics. Over time my brain has filled in the blanks.

I'm sure this will get much more difficult, as I introduce more variation into the shot, but I think this illustrates the applicability of the principles very nicely.

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Giving the app some more testing and I'm still finding the tapping difficult to get feedback on. Sometimes I tap and I get either blue, green, yellow or red "smiley's" at the top, but sometimes I'll tap a correct solution and still get a red as it doesn't acknowledge the tap. There'sno perceivable difference when I tap "right" and when I tap "wrong" for a correct solution. Obviously I expect a red face when I tap for an incorrect solution. Perhaps there could be some kind of indication that a tap has not been received on a shot,or received too late? I think ensuring that the app either acknowledges a tap, or tells the player they tapped too late is crucial for player confidence in the app. (I've played different levels a number of times each tonight, trying to tap in different ways to overcome the issue and I improved the registration rate, but sometimes a tap is still not acknowledged - even in Level1 - when it downright should be).

Maybe also a replay function of the last round could be added so a player can review and understand where they went wrong and therefore help to increase their ability on the app by being able to review in a slow motion manner what they did wrong and how they misread cues. Doing this in real-time play speed is almost impossible. So improvement success is not as likely to be as quick. Obviously the greater the improvement ability of a player, the more likely they are to decide its worth spending the money to go to advanced levels. Conversely, if it takes too long to feel the app is helping in the free levels, buying the higher levels would make no sense. The app must help a player improve in every way possible, or it won't be achieving the objectives for which its being developed,or the objectives of the player using it.

The faces are another issue too. What exactly do they mean? There needs to be a legend in the information somewhere which defines what each face means and why it carries the score it does. This will also helps the player identify what they need to do to improve their response decisions (which are obviously micro-seconds apart at times). The better and more clearly explained everything in the app is, the more user-friendly and therefore "assisting" as a TT tool it can be. I know and appreciate this is early days, and you have released this in order to get feedback from people like me....so I look forward to seeing improvements coming in the updates. it would be excellent to see a "planned changelog" put here on the forum prior to updates being developed, and then a changelog put up when an update is released. I'd be happy to do some beta testing on the full version.

I'm not at a "buying" stage with this app yet, so I can't make any comments on levels 4 and 5.

Edit: One other issue I found also, is when you clear the app from memory (eg. shut down the device), scores are cleared from memory. Not sure if players want high scores wiped that way. A scores reset button would be better with the app holding high score until its is reset manually.

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

Before I comment, I hope that you have success with this and you achieve what you want out of it. I'm not trying to be negative, just giving my thoughts which of course you are free to dismiss. For me though I didn't really like it very much. As Reb said the touch was insensitive and the instructions made it confusing as to what we should be doing. The interface looked cheap. No exit option was a bit annoying. In its current form I don't think its worth $6 odd to buy the paid version to just get William doing a few more shots a minute. There are so many good apps that are free or cost $0.99c you really need to have a good product to charge more. I'm a bit tight so I'm not into paying for apps but then again I generally don't need to due to the free stuff on offer. I did however pay about $7 for wikicamps which is a great app. Full Table Tennis instructional ebooks are available for $10 so $6 for one skill seems a bit much.

Depending what you are trying to achieve as to how to improve the app. If you are just looking to help out die hard table tennis players with a particular skill then perhaps the app is perfect the way it is however many would say that I'm a die hard fan who is always reading articles, watching videos on the forum but I still didn't find the app worthwhile to pay for so I think your market is limited...or maybe I'm just tight.

You have mentioned that its a game/app. Which one of those it actually is would suggest the direction to make improvements.

If its a game I'd suggest mulitiple players with multiple shots and perhaps 4 quadrants rather than two with backspin, topspin etc. One level would have to be cleared before the next level can be played. Achievements. Upgrades. Career mode, quickplay. These are the things that would be expected from a games market.

If its an app rather than a game I'd still like to see other additions to make it worthwhile. These things could be an ITTF fixture list, instructional videos or pictures, equipment information and other general things to make it a one stop TT app worth paying for.

If the app is designed to make money (and why wouldn't it be), I really think the price is too high and not enough content to really open it up to a mass market which at this time seems quite limited to a few generous forum members. Time will tell however and I'm happy to be wrong and wish you all the best. I've tried to create an app myself but never got it off the ground so your already doing better than me.

Good luck

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You know there is lots of ways to make money and there is lots of games out there too - I don't think this is either. They're just trying something different in the realm of brain training for table tennis.

I don't think this app is for you...

I can't help it - I'm a software dev and the pricing of apps is insane - far too low. Some developer spent a LOT of time working on this seemingly simple app and is asking for a whole $5. How much does your lunch cost? Or how about to fill your car up? Coffee in the morning? Elect bill? When you think about an app for $5, it's really very little money in the grand scheme of things. Also you are right, not many people will pay for it because it's designed for a sport that is not very popular and a subset of those players even. Unlike your $1 or $8 example, which perhaps thousands of people will pay for.

So I hope the dev makes enough money to fill his car with petrol a few times and even a nice dinner for the effort put in.

Hi Cobalt,

Thanks for your feedback.

The reason we included the inapp purchase (USD$5) was so people could make an informed decision about whether or not to pay for the app. To avoid disgruntle customers, we didn't go with a paid download model. It's a free download and everyone knows what they'll be paying for on levels 4 and 5. I understand you "don't like it very much" and therefore you won't paying...at least for now.

I also understand that you can buy apps for 99 cent or get them for free. Many of those "free" app have ads etc from where the developer derives income. Many of these apps have global market potential however they also have lots of competition. Table Tennis Edge has a very limited market and no competition. I don't consider Angry Birds competition or a viable alternative, although its a free download. I don't consider ebooks to be operating in the same space.

I personally would have paid an extraordinary amount of money for the app 15 years ago, because I deeply understand the implications. Increasing my ability to read the play prior to contact could have changed my bank account significantly. To me it would have been worth an infinite amount more than a sheet of rubber or a coaching lesson for $70. Granted that I never had to pay for equipment or coaching, but the app would have been more valuable to me regardless.

I expect this app to evolve into something bigger and better. I won't reveal all of our intentions as I don't want to give away the ideas. This is phase 1 of larger project. Don't think your comments went unnoticed and we will contemplate everything you said. I appreciate your feedback and we shall strive to impress you over time. We will consider our work complete when you finally press the purchase button...lol.

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We are currently submitting an update on both IOS and Android to deal with sensitivity issue people are having on Level 1. The touch sensitivity concerns don't occur at levels 2 and above. For various technical reasons, sensitivity increases wit h the speed of the levels. Included in the update will be a flash to represent your initial touch.

It's important to be aware that you can't click after the ball is behind you as it will register a selection for the next shot. The window of opportunity starts when the ball leaves you and finishes when the ball comes back. You have to be fast.

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Get your 3 wishes here today!
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching

I bought levels 4 & 5. I was stuck at 86% on level three, and after playing level four less than ten times i got consistently into the 90s on level three. But my best is 42 of 44. I still always miss a few, very often the very first ball, and then one more when it changes direction.

It's almost too lifelike, because i find myself thinking about the score while i am playing, with predictably bad results.

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Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

Play the lefty if you want to be humbled.... I have made great strides against the lefty recently though - I have gotten much faster. Hopefully, this will help against the kid I can't read.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus