OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Over the weekend the Senior National championship was on.
http://www.tabletennisireland.ie/

Unsure of the winning prize for the mens but the womans was €150.
Winner wasn't too happy and reckoned after hotel + entry fee of €25 plus food it cost her to compete.

Checking the no. of entries there were just 18 whilst in the men there was 42.

The previous weekend there was a local tournament that had some sponsorship with a higher no. of entries and the first woman's prize was €500.

Was €150 enough ?
Please cast your vote

P.S. You are able to re-vote.

I don't think it's enough. For a national event, they can't just rely on entry fees for price money, they need to find Sponsors.

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The National event is sponsored by Butterfly.
Are you referring to having a commercial sponsor like the one at the previous event the previous weekend which would have been the Confucius institute ?

http://www.pingzone.ie/tournament/2016-confucius-cup

Key differences between the Butterfly National event and the commercially Sponsored event is

1. Hall would have been a higher standard & substantially bigger - guess the hire cost could have been 2K verus 1K. There's a stricter set of criteria that a hall has to met for a sanctioned event.
2. Slightly lower no. of entries but at a higher entry charge of €25 verus €15-€20
3. Official & tournament referees

In other countries would the National events have dual sponsorship e.g. Butterfly & another sponsor ?
And what would be the typical 1st place prize be ?

It does sound like a pretty small event, participation-wise. Any spectators? Problem is, sponsors will sponsor something if they feel there's a benefit to themselves from the exposure or from advertising, and that only comes when there's lots of spectators. In the end, table tennis is a pretty small deal in a lot of the world, sponsors not related to the sport itself will see limited appeal in backing it because it's not going to benefit them. There are lots of smaller sports and activities with the same problem. How much prize money does the National Championships of, say, volleyball, or Rounders, offer?

I was surprised to find that the top prize for women's singles at the German Open was only - what was it - USD6,500. (Or maybe that was doubles..). Pretty penny ante when compared to, say, tennis.

I do find it interesting that there is a Confucius Institute in Ireland and they sponsored a table tennis tournament. There's been some controversy over them, particularly in the US - some (mainly Americans with a right-wing mindset) see them as "outreach" for the Chinese government and therefore "improper". For instance, they were stopped from offering classes in school districts in California, if I recall correctly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism ... Institutes

I suppose there's an implied connection: Confucius Institute -> ties to Chinese Government -> Table tennis is big in China -> Promotion of table tennis elsewhere -> More people play table tennis -> More people with friendly ties to the Chinese -> Etc... Make of it what you will!

Iskandar

For National events, you normally want multiple sponsors so you can offer more/higher prizes. Did Butterfly have the exclusive rights to be the sole sponsor? Why would the tournament organizer agree to that? It kinda limits the amount/size of the prizes.

For comparison, the 2015 US Nationals offered prizes of $7000USD each for the men's and women's singles. There were at least 5 sponsors and maybe more which included Joola, Nittaku, the hotels, the transportation providers, etc.

There's a major difference between US tournaments and that tournament in Ireland. Yes, both are attended only by enthusiasts (no "sports fans" like you'd have at, say, a pro basketball game), but a US Nationals will have maybe 250+ players (conservative number) in attendance, playing in many different categories (this is what is possible when you have a ratings system). When you have that many people in attendance, these people will be taking up hotel rooms, buying lunch and dinner at nearby eateries, and very importantly, buying lots blades and rubbers and such. THIS is what brings the multiple sponsors - not only do they want you to buy their blades and rubber and shoes and clothing at the event, they want you as a potential customer in the future. There's also the possibility of non-table tennis companies becoming sponsors - local businesses, hotel chains, fast food restaurant chains for instance.

I attended several large regional tournaments in US back in the 1990s. The Duneland tournament, for instance, was held in Michigan City every year. There would be at least three huge booths set up selling stuff - Bob Brickell was there, there was a dealer from Indianapolis, and there was Gunther Schroeder selling Donic stuff (new at the time). They took up a whole convention center, and there were no fewer than 40 or 50 tables in the place, with barriers. I forget what the prize money for the Open (Men's and Women's) categories was, probably a couple thousand dollars - the winners of the other categories got trophies (I have one or two somewhere.. maybe for second place in the U-1150.. ), everyone has a fun weekend.

The thing is, though.... even $7000 is peanuts as far as sporting prize money goes. Pro tennis prizes are a hundred times as much or more. Maybe it's not really worth thinking about, we'll just have to accept the fact that for most of us (even most of the top pros) table tennis tournaments will always be a money sink. You spend a lot more attending the contest - travel, accommodation, meals - the entry fees are a very minor part of the expense - than you will ever win back in prize money. Even for the pros this isn't where the money is - the money is in leagues, in endorsements and merchandizing, in coaching perhaps.

Iskandar

Many thanks for the all responses and in particular the last one from iskandar taib who really keeps the OOAK going !

Had a little chat with one or two about the last tournament with the €150 prize and it would appear that the men's prize was most likely double at €300. Prize money isn't advertised preferring to keep it in a sealed envelope.

At first I got the impression that the sponsorship was exclusive to Butterfly but it appears it is just the gear that is sponsored and a few bob is thrown their way. All the staff (bar one or 2) work for free so the main cost is the hire of the hall.

To beat up any of the organisers for not getting sponsorship so that 'we' can have bigger prizes would be unfair since they do work for nothing.

Criticism that I had of the event was that their was no Class II event and that the vets was being played at 9am in the morning when the main event is on the Friday at 6pm when the points count. So this was the first sanctioned event that I decided not to participate in since I wasn't prepared to pay €25 to get blown away in the first round against the elite players.

Going back on the Confucius cup - I had not really though about the implications for indirectly taking sponsorship money from a questionable or controversial source. If I had a choice over winning a 'clean' €150 prize verus a questionable €500 one I'd probably opt for the former. I know to well about what goes on in the background with the level of censorship and surveillance that goes on. Sometimes you've better off putting your head in the sand.

Final thoughts are that the captive audience that an event can get is other TT players. Older or less elite players should be encouraged to participate. If they get 2-3 hours of play they would be only to happy to sit down and support the top players do their stuff and play it like it should be played. Ways should be looked at to bring the numbers up to fill the pot. The last thing a Sponsor wants is to have a empty hall with no spectators. Make it spectacular so all the family can come along. I still haven't managed to get my other half to go along to a tournament - she was little or no interest.

Can never see a situation where the top prize would be anything like the figures posted previously !

I wouldn't worry about the Confucius Institute - after all, "outreach" by foreign governments is common and should be. Here, we have the British Council offering English classes, among other things, as well as helping people who wish to study in Britain. There's the Japan Foundation - I know about them mainly for the excellent film festival they run every year (got a nice T-shirt last year.. ), they offer Japanese classes and organize cultural events. The US has the Peace Corps, we know what they do and world is better for it. And then there's the BBC, not to mention Voice of America! If the Chinese government wants to reach out to people of other lands, promote its own culture and encourage tourism, why not? Sure, they might have "ulterior motives" - promoting their point of view, for instance, but so does everyone else - no need to get paranoid about it like some people are in the US! If they offer help/money in sponsoring a table tennis tournament, I'd say go for it. I just found it interesting that they chose table tennis!

Iskandar

I posted the wrong info about the 2015 US Nationals top prize. The correct amount was $3800. Over 700 players registered to play at the Nationals.

The $7000 prize was for the 2015 US Open which attracted over 900 players.

Keep in mind that the two major tournaments have higher entry fees and many events for players to enter. The entry fees are structured to encourage players to enter more events.

The prizes are primarily funded by player entry fees. As for your tournament, perhaps the lower prize amount for the Women's event is due to fewer entries than for Men's events.

You can see the entry fees and prizes for the two major US tournaments on the entry forms:
2015 US Nationals http://register.usatt.org/tournaments/2015_US_National_Championships_Entry_Form.pdf
2015 US Open http://www.teamusa.org/~/media/USA_Table_Tennis/Documents/Tournaments/2015/2015-US-Open-Domestic-Entry-Final-1.pdf

For comparison, here is the entry form and prizes for a larger local tournament http://www.westchestertabletennis.com/pics/pdf/Westchester2016Mar.pdf

I'm thinking, minus table tennis becoming popular as a spectator sport like it is in China, the way forward for the rest of the world is to make "National Tournaments" more participatory. In other words - rather than just having one competition class (or five - the Men's and the Women's, plus doubles..), have a "Division Two", a "Division Three", etc. so ANYONE of any level who is serious about the game can enter. The logistics would need to be worked out, of course - in the US the ratings system provides a ready-made way to put players in their categories, elsewhere you'd probably need to use league rankings to begin with (before starting a ratings system). Once you start attracting two or three hundred players, you'll have enough in entry fees to fund larger prizes, attract more sponsors, have vendor space, etc. and it can grow from there.

Iskandar

Quite shocked at the cost of entry. One event is $125 !!!
Compared with the €25 that we would pay, it now seems cheap in comparison !

Typically for me it would cost €25 for the Open, CII would be c.€20 & the vets c.€17 plus admin fee of c.€3 = €55 for 3 events. Fewer and fewer are now prepared to pay that amount for an evening & a full day. The vets event does not have any affect since the 'real' vets tournaments are run by a different association which determines who gets to represent. Those that go are self financed.



Also noticed on the Westchester tournament that a player's ranking also affected their entry fee. Not too sure how that would go down but encouraging lower ranked players to enter to grow the numbers isn't a bad idea.


One thought that I did have was that at some stage the standard of hall that is currently required for sanctioned events would become unrealistic if numbers continue to drop.

On the idea of having different divisions I did think that a class III type competition (with a relatively cheaper entry fee) would be good to beef the numbers up. I also think that it would be worthwhile having more individuals skilled on the rules of table tennis so that they would be less of an onus on uniformed umpires and may help to deter gamesmanship.

Also having local business support an event would be good. Remember an event in N.I. in Dundonald late 2015 where a local McDonalds supported the TT event - at the time I thought it was double edged given all the hype of how bad their food was for you. Suppose you cannot be picky about who the supporter is if all you want is the funding.

To me it's more the perception that €150 seems too little. I can certainly see the difficulties in raising money and/or finding sponsors, and the fact that most (if not all) the workers are volunteers.

If this is the sort of money they have available for prizes, I would personally be happier getting a really nice trophy or medal.

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Eye opening. I never attended any of the US Open or Closed tournaments (as they were called back then), so I've never seen entry fees of this magnitude, but remember that even $200 (no one, except maybe the very top players, will fly to Vegas to enter just one event) is peanuts compared to what you're going to pay for a week of hotel rooms and meals, plus plane tickets. This $200 is for an entire week of table tennis! In reality, you'd probably not come for the entire week - you'd just go on the days your events are being held. In contrast - the Westchester event is a two day affair, at 12 tables, a fairly small tournament with local draw. Probably much like the Dayton, Ohio ones I attended - they played on an ice rink in the summer (no ice, of course). Probably 200+ attendees.

Note the sheer number of events - you have Championship Events - 40 of those! - which you can enter, if eligible, without regard to ratings. Then you have ratings events - this is were someone like me would be playing, and where, I suspect, you'd have the bulk of the participation. If I were to go, I'd enter the U-1400, the U-1500, the U-1600, and one of the other events (the 41 point handicap event is sometimes interesting). Maybe even the Open, just for the heck of it (it's only another $15), where I'd likely get wiped off the table the first game (but I'd have a chance of being wiped off the table by Danny Seemiller!). The only event I'd ever have a chance at winning would be the U-1400, of course, but there's a chance of picking up ratings points in the other events.

Note too they have Hardbat events (including some ratings events!) and sandpaper events - and some of these have prize money! (Maybe Marty Reisman left an endowment fund for these.. or they have sponsors.)

More of a concern for me than entry fees in deciding whether or not to go would be being able to take a week's vacation!



Ah.. you're looking at the ratings categories. Yup, usually the lower ratings events are cheaper, and there's little or no prize money. Here, it costs $20 to enter the U-1450, and first place prize is $30! But I'll bet you'd have maybe 25-30 people entered in it. Again, if I were to have attended, I would've played in the U-1450, the U-1600 and U-1750 - all these are round robins, so I'd be guaranteed maybe 9 matches total, more if I get beyond the group stage (in reality, not much of a chance except in the U-1450), and a shot at $75 + $30 + $30 ($135) in total prize money (I'd only have a realistic - in fact, very small, chance at only $30, though). My fees would come to $20 + $20 + $25 plus the $10 registration fee, and would be $75 for the weekend.

Note that at any of these tournaments, you'd have hundreds of players circulating around, and spectating (and buying stuff). The Open Finals will be played quite late in the schedule, and most of the people will stick around to watch, even if they're done playing already. If this sort of tournament (with an accompanying ratings system) ever caught on in China they'd have some real monster events. They'd probably have to have a Beijing Closed or a Tianjin Closed, otherwise they'd have 7000-10000 players congregating in one place and you'd need maybe 300 tables - no idea how you'd manage the logistics.

Iskandar

Iskandar pretty much nailed it - at tournaments like Westchester (where I played 3 days ago) decent Open prize (1500$) is subsidized by entry fees in lower events. Westchester consistently draws 120-130 people for their monthly events, and assuming people on average enter 2 events and spend 50$ (I did 5 @160$) , it should cover total prize fund of 5400$ they typically have.

Not all events are equally popular: U14 , O40 can have only 3-5 people entered, but popular ones like U2000, U1750 can have 20-25 players, so you do play 3-4 matches in RR and then have to play as many as 4 single elimination matches to win it all. I won 30$ once (winning U1600) - and it was great, but not because of money. They also have 'fun' events like handicap and doubles.

Spectators at the Open are mostly made up of other players, that's just reality here, although I do believe they sell admission tickets on Sundays (10$?), but don't know how many paying customers show up, hard to tell. I always wish I could stay longer to watch more of the Open, but 3 hour drive back to Boston usually means I have to leave before SE stage in the Open even starts. Never saw any extra vendors, but I guess their small TT shop gets a bit of extra business on tournament weekends.

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Forget to mention that there was a nice trophy but you have to give it back