OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 19 Jun 2019, 23:31


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 83 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 07:14 
Offline
Kim Is My Shadow
Kim Is My Shadow
User avatar

Joined: 28 Jun 2008, 09:04
Posts: 2200
Location: Lancashire
Has thanked: 219 times
Been thanked: 305 times
Blade: Magic: Wand
FH: Confusion
BH: Paranoia
"Was a hardbat player for years - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX both fh and bh"

Good to see you back Snowman89. Why the change from OX both FH and BH - your answer could shed some light on the question?

As for tennis, i like variety and there are many reasons for the increase in popularity of Tennis which have nothing to do with styles. Better TV coverage, more hype TV coverage, more emphasis on stats, Hawkeye, faster turn around times between points, not as many change of ends, changes in the scoring of matches, the use of high speed cameras, coaches being allowed to visit players during matches and the TV audience being allowed to listen in to what is being said, spin rates being calculated, better analysis of the games, zones hit, where players stand for first and second serve, ball placement and TV, mass coverage on TV, TV that tells us how great tennis is and if it says it often enough we will believe it and of course money, lots of it.

Yes, in my experience, which is not the top level, defenders are a dying breed.

Until TV finds a way to demonstrate defenders don't "win" because of poor attackers but "win" because of disguise, effort, placement, tactics and immense hand to eye co-ordination and physical stamina and until the coaching system looses it's "there are no defenders in the top 10 in the world so don't teach anyone how to defend" mentality defenders will be few and far between lost among top spin everything youngsters and push and chisel older players. It would also help if attackers actually came off the table and admitted their opponent played very well rather than looking at themselves and believing "they lost it" rather than their opponent "winning it".

On a brighter note, I'm booked on a Continuing Personal Development workshop in May called "Defensive Table Tennis". It's the first time I have seen an official Table Tennis England workshop dealing with the defensive aspects of the game. I'm really looking forward to it and good on TT England for putting it on.


Top
 Profile  
 


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!

PostPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 00:08 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 02 May 2017, 11:49
Posts: 149
Location: CT, USA
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 29 times
Blade: VKMO (FL)
FH: Hurricane 2 (black)
BH: TSP Curl P1r 1.0 (red)
Debater wrote:
Until TV finds a way to demonstrate defenders don't "win" because of poor attackers but "win" because of disguise, effort, placement, tactics and immense hand to eye co-ordination and physical stamina


I thought T2APAC did a good job with this, especially when Gavin Rumgay was the commentator. He'd talk about the variation on Joo's forehand chop and how difficult it can be to read, and discuss tactical play.

_________________
Seeking joy and fitness in recreational modern defense.
My blog: "Two rubbers, one racket"
Kill the game against long Pimps with Coach Li!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 05:50 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 09:24
Posts: 626
Location: Universe
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 48 times
SOME RULE CHANGE NEEDED...

https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2 ... M-Div1.pdf

https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2 ... W-Div1.pdf

Men's Teams Super Division, 67 individual entries in total, only ONE SINGLE non-attacker is present - Ruwen Filus of Germany. Yes, the breed of defenders is now nearly gone. Sorry.

You have to somewhat change the Rules of the game so as to give defenders a better chance. The current rules do favour the attacking play mostly.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 08:32 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
Debater wrote:
"Was a hardbat player for years - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX both fh and bh"

Good to see you back Snowman89. Why the change from OX both FH and BH - your answer could shed some light on the question?

As for tennis, i like variety and there are many reasons for the increase in popularity of Tennis which have nothing to do with styles. Better TV coverage, more hype TV coverage, more emphasis on stats, Hawkeye, faster turn around times between points, not as many change of ends, changes in the scoring of matches, the use of high speed cameras, coaches being allowed to visit players during matches and the TV audience being allowed to listen in to what is being said, spin rates being calculated, better analysis of the games, zones hit, where players stand for first and second serve, ball placement and TV, mass coverage on TV, TV that tells us how great tennis is and if it says it often enough we will believe it and of course money, lots of it.

Yes, in my experience, which is not the top level, defenders are a dying breed.

Until TV finds a way to demonstrate defenders don't "win" because of poor attackers but "win" because of disguise, effort, placement, tactics and immense hand to eye co-ordination and physical stamina and until the coaching system looses it's "there are no defenders in the top 10 in the world so don't teach anyone how to defend" mentality defenders will be few and far between lost among top spin everything youngsters and push and chisel older players. It would also help if attackers actually came off the table and admitted their opponent played very well rather than looking at themselves and believing "they lost it" rather than their opponent "winning it".

On a brighter note, I'm booked on a Continuing Personal Development workshop in May called "Defensive Table Tennis". It's the first time I have seen an official Table Tennis England workshop dealing with the defensive aspects of the game. I'm really looking forward to it and good on TT England for putting it on.


Hi Debater :). How are you these days?

Quick answer to your question: sponge helps to increase the amount of backspin on my chops, and in the case of my forehand rubber, it increases my power dramatically (it even increases hitting consistency because of the slight change in trajectory).

Yes, of course there is never just one reason as to why something is the way it is. It is the accumulation of many different things. There is no doubt in my mind though that tennis is more entertaining now than it was in the 90s, though I'm not saying I wouldn't love to watch Sampras and Agassi play again :). String technology and slower courts in general have helped improve rallies, though it has gone too much the other way now I think, as serve and volley has practically died. Defenders in table tennis are actually doing better I think than serve and volleyers in tennis (though Federer has certainly shown us that it can still be ultra effective).

Late last year, after being mostly absent from table tennis for a while, I reevaluated my game. I was losing interest in the sport. Hardbat had failed to really come back like I hoped it would. Many players who took up hardbat seemed to forget or ignore the whole point of it, the bring back a balance to offense/defense. I think that's probably why Marty Reisman started focusing on sandpaper in his later years (a second chance perhaps at restoring the balance that he felt, and I feel, has been lost).

This reflection made me rethink my equipment and I realized I wasn't doing myself any favours using short pips OX on both sides. Merely adding 1.5mm sponge on short pips on my forehand has increased my power and spin, and I haven't lost much control. I kept my Yasaka short pip OX rubber on my backhand until very recently, but it was a weakness next to my forehand with the new rubber. Now I'm experimenting with various long pips on my backhand for extra forgiveness on my backhand side when defending, which is why I think most pro defenders use long pips on their backhand. Defenders need to stay in rallies, and short pips with no sponge means I had to get it 100% right every time when up against hard top spin hitters, much like when using a really small tennis racket head. It was brilliant when I was on fire and terrible when I wasn't.

I've taken off Feint Long II and I am currently trying Feint Long III, which so far is pretty good. Feint Long III is great for varying the levels of backspin from a dead float to a heavy chop (one of the great greatest weapons a defender can have in my opinion), without needing spin from your opponent (which many long pips need), which I like. It also seems to have the forgiveness of long pips, helping me to consistently chop back top spin shots; there's also plenty of grip to hit with top spin.

Attackers, as you say, tend to believe they lost the match if they lose to a defender. That's not necessarily the case. A good defender will set traps throughput the point to win in the long run while withstanding your offense. Winning could come in the form of simply outlasting the attacker, or it could be getting the attacker to misread your strokes (amount of backspin on the ball) and therefore make a mistake. I think of a table tennis defender as being similar to how Mayweather boxes. Mayweather looks like he's running and being passive, but he's not. He's baiting you, feinting shots, and waiting for the right time to counter. Most table tennis players seem to want to be the equivalent of Joe Frazier or Tyson. I don't like Mayweather's personality, but his boxing is beautiful! Add something to gloves that increases the power dramatically and you would practically shut out defensive boxers, as the reward for single strikes would be that much greater. That's basically, in my mind, what has happened in table tennis.

The defensive table tennis course you are going on sounds interesting. When you have a smaller pool of talent you will get less stand out results, and I think this is also to blame for the lack of defenders at the top level. If more people played defensively and were coached to play the style at a high level, we would surely see more defenders around the top. I remember in my first year or so playing table tennis my parents put me on a coaching course. In my first session, the coach got me to hit everything, not even push, despite that I was developing even at that point a defensive game and made him aware of that. My parents told him, if I remember correctly, that I played a defensive game. He basically tried to make a fool out of me in the next session. It's things like that I don't like. Respect is very important, and I think defenders don't get enough of it. It's a hard style to have success with, so I really look up to guys like Joo Sae Hyuk and Panagiotis Gionis who have done so well at such a high level.

That said, a defender in the modern game becoming world number 1 seems highly unlikely with the way things are now. In that sense, it's logical to teach an attacking style. I'm not sure if I would teach my kids a defensive style, but if that's what they naturally wanted to do, I would encourage them.

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 21:35 
Offline
Joo Too
Joo Too
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2008, 18:31
Posts: 3752
Location: Dendermonde, Belgium
Has thanked: 967 times
Been thanked: 507 times
Blade: BTY Joo Se Hyuk ST
FH: Victas VS>401 2.0 R
BH: TSP Curl P1-R 1.5 B
Snowman89 wrote:
The defensive table tennis course you are going on sounds interesting. When you have a smaller pool of talent you will get less stand out results, and I think this is also to blame for the lack of defenders at the top level. If more people played defensively and were coached to play the style at a high level, we would surely see more defenders around the top. I remember in my first year or so playing table tennis my parents put me on a coaching course. In my first session, the coach got me to hit everything, not even push, despite that I was developing even at that point a defensive game and made him aware of that. My parents told him, if I remember correctly, that I played a defensive game. He basically tried to make a fool out of me in the next session. It's things like that I don't like. Respect is very important, and I think defenders don't get enough of it. It's a hard style to have success with, so I really look up to guys like Joo Sae Hyuk and Panagiotis Gionis who have done so well at such a high level.

That said, a defender in the modern game becoming world number 1 seems highly unlikely with the way things are now. In that sense, it's logical to teach an attacking style. I'm not sure if I would teach my kids a defensive style, but if that's what they naturally wanted to do, I would encourage them.


Yes, respect for those guys daring to stand out of the group with so little return. But the thing is: if you lose all defenders, you'll lose the most beautiful thing in the sport: rallies of attack vs. defense. TT needs defenders or it's a dead game viewer wise. Jobwise it's a bit like being someone who thinks in function of the team. Lose those and you'll get non functioning organisations. Society wise lose that kind of people and you'll get war.

I like your final sentence. I have the same opinion about that.

_________________
There's always stuff to improve!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 21:56 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
igorponger wrote:
SOME RULE CHANGE NEEDED...

https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2 ... M-Div1.pdf

https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2 ... W-Div1.pdf

Men's Teams Super Division, 67 individual entries in total, only ONE SINGLE non-attacker is present - Ruwen Filus of Germany. Yes, the breed of defenders is now nearly gone. Sorry.

You have to somewhat change the Rules of the game so as to give defenders a better chance. The current rules do favour the attacking play mostly.


To my knowledge, there are only three male defenders in the top 100 in the world. I think there are over 10 in the top 100 in the womens rankings though. Defenders are most definitely dying at the top level, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are no defenders in the top 100 in the next few decades. Advances in equipment and changes to the rules over the years have not been kind to defenders, so it seems the ITTF aren't that concerned about the style fading out.

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 22:11 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
Lorre wrote:
Snowman89 wrote:
The defensive table tennis course you are going on sounds interesting. When you have a smaller pool of talent you will get less stand out results, and I think this is also to blame for the lack of defenders at the top level. If more people played defensively and were coached to play the style at a high level, we would surely see more defenders around the top. I remember in my first year or so playing table tennis my parents put me on a coaching course. In my first session, the coach got me to hit everything, not even push, despite that I was developing even at that point a defensive game and made him aware of that. My parents told him, if I remember correctly, that I played a defensive game. He basically tried to make a fool out of me in the next session. It's things like that I don't like. Respect is very important, and I think defenders don't get enough of it. It's a hard style to have success with, so I really look up to guys like Joo Sae Hyuk and Panagiotis Gionis who have done so well at such a high level.

That said, a defender in the modern game becoming world number 1 seems highly unlikely with the way things are now. In that sense, it's logical to teach an attacking style. I'm not sure if I would teach my kids a defensive style, but if that's what they naturally wanted to do, I would encourage them.


Yes, respect for those guys daring to stand out of the group with so little return. But the thing is: if you lose all defenders, you'll lose the most beautiful thing in the sport: rallies of attack vs. defense. TT needs defenders or it's a dead game viewer wise. Jobwise it's a bit like being someone who thinks in function of the team. Lose those and you'll get non functioning organisations. Society wise lose that kind of people and you'll get war.

I like your final sentence. I have the same opinion about that.


I agree. Attack vs defense is the most entertaining scenario in the sport, and it would be a shame to lose it. That's the way it's going though, and there seems to be a lot of anger targeted at defenders at an amateur level, which doesn't help encourage younger players to adopt the style.

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 10:23 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 24 Apr 2011, 11:24
Posts: 596
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 149 times
Blade: SOULSPIN DEFENSE
FH: Spinny stuff
BH: Spongeless reviled stuff
How many top 100 defenders were there in past decades? Has there ever been a top 1 defensive player since sponge came out?

_________________
SOULSPIN CUSTOM BLADES
Fh: Spinny rubber
Bh: Not so spinny rubber...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 19:22 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
skilless_slapper wrote:
How many top 100 defenders were there in past decades? Has there ever been a top 1 defensive player since sponge came out?


To my knowledge, there hasn't been a world champion on the mens side with a defensive style since 1950 (which was Bergmann, who won four singles world chamionships and some others in doubles etc.). Sidó was the last hardbat player I believe to win the world championship, which, if I remember correctly, was the championships after sponge was first introduced, but he wasn't a defensive player (but he chopped here and there still).

As for actual stats of how many defenders throughout the years have been in the top 100, I don't have any. I've tried to find out (and I will keep looking) but it's a lot harder to find stuff out about table tennis history than many other sports. It's generally not a sport that cares much about its history. The general consensus though is that there were more defenders in past decades, but yea, they still weren't winning the really big titles in the sponge era, which basically started in 1952 or something like that. That's a long time ago...

Joo Sae-hyuk has been the most successful defender I know of in the sponge era (reached world number 5 twice I think and was a finalist at the 2003 world championships), but even he could not take the style that step further. It's a near impossible task to take a defensive style in the sponge era, never mind nowadays, and be the best. Defenders can keep evolving the style to kind of keep up (although they may be reaching the end of the line), but to actually win, big changes need to be made to the sport. For that to happen though, there would actually have to be a big demand for it, which there doesn't seem to be. Lovers of the defensive game seem to be more of a vocal minority.

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 21:37 
Online
Dr. Chop-Blogger
Dr. Chop-Blogger
User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2013, 00:48
Posts: 1683
Location: Boston
Has thanked: 542 times
Been thanked: 360 times
Blade: Donic Defplay
FH: Palio AK47 Blue
BH: Grass Dtecs OX
Strange as it may seem, but I'm not too bothered by the fact that defense is not well represented in Top 100. I'm not playing on World Tour, and the style is still quite feasible at the league and tournament level where I play. So, 'keep calm and just keep chopping/bumping' :rock: .

_________________
USATT: 1871 | League: 1909


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 22:06 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
pgpg wrote:
Strange as it may seem, but I'm not too bothered by the fact that defense is not well represented in Top 100. I'm not playing on World Tour, and the style is still quite feasible at the league and tournament level where I play. So, 'keep calm and just keep chopping/bumping' :rock: .


Defense is still viable at an amateur level for sure. I'm personally concerned though that there aren't many top level defenders holding the flag so to speak. I don't like the idea that my style of play is at a disadvantage at the top level, even though I don't feel too much of a disadvantage at my level. For the sport to truly grow, it desperately needs more variety at the top (not so much referring to Chinese dominance, but playing styles/strategies). It's got a 'seen one match seen most of em' kind of thing going on at the top level (not so much at amateur level, as I've encountered so many styles). Defenders represent some of that needed variety, though it goes beyond that. Penholds are now struggling too, and there seems to be one specific way to win that many players are following. Waldner said something along those lines I think, that styles are kind of disappearing.

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 14:38 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 17 Jul 2013, 17:01
Posts: 535
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 88 times
Blade: Joola CWX
FH: Joola rhyzm 2.1
BH: Troublemaker ox
Roy wrote:
Update...defenders among the best 149 ranked.

2016/8 list

14 JOO Saehyuk
25 GIONIS Panagiotis
39 MURAMATSU Yuto
45 CHEN Weixing
51 WANG Yang
56 FILUS Ruwen
57 SHIONO Masato
84 PATTANTYUS Adam


2017/8 list

22 GIONIS Panagiotis
23 FILUS Ruwen
30 MURAMATSU Yuto
66 WANG Yang
69 CHEN Weixing
117 WANG Xi ^^
128 KANG Dongsoo (added)

Defenders - Men's rankings 2018[/b]

http://results.ittf.link/index.php?opti ... Itemid=206

FILUS Ruwen 18
MURAMATSU Yuto 72
WANG Yang 94
GIONIS Panagiotis 95
JOO Saehyuk 178
WANG Xi 191
CHEN Weixing 219
KANG Dongsoo 399
PATTANTYUS Adam 560

Defenders 2019/3

FILUS Ruwen 38
GIONIS Panagiotis 51
WANG Yang 71

Future of defending doesn't look too bright. Wang Xi is still playing good and Ma Te can be a big name, but not many newcomers that I can think of.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 16:52 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2018, 03:24
Posts: 281
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 29 times
Came across this site ... It offers some nice stats ...

https://tabletennis.guide/versus.php?co ... layers=100

_________________
Setup 1 : GKI Euro XX Blade Xiom Vega Europe Max (Black) Bomb Talent OX (Red)
Setup 2 : 729 C-5 Blade Reactor Corbor Max (Black) Dawei 388D-1 OX (Red)
Setup 3 : Donic Defplay Senso V3 Blade Palio AK-47 Blue Max (Black) Palio CK531A 0.6mm (Red)
Setup 4 : XVT Hinoki Balsa Carbon Blade 729 Focus III Snipe 40° Max (Black) Reactor Corbor (Red)
Setup 5 : Butterfly Joyner-H Blade (Black Metal Tag) Palio AK-47 Yellow Max (Black) Yasaka Mark V Max (Red)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 May 2019, 15:28 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 17 Jul 2013, 17:01
Posts: 535
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 88 times
Blade: Joola CWX
FH: Joola rhyzm 2.1
BH: Troublemaker ox
First time in close history there is no defenders in TOP 50. Filus has come down in ranking.

MAY RANKING 2019

WANG Yang 58
GIONIS Panagiotis 60
FILUS Ruwen 87


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 May 2019, 04:44 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 04 Jan 2009, 02:32
Posts: 287
Location: MD, USA
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 77 times
Blade: VKMO
FH: V>15 Extra
BH: Curl P4
For some odd reason many world class defenders just stopped playing internationally.. To go over some names:

- Shiono (in his early 30s) retired after winning two major tournaments. He works for Stiga developing and testing equipment

- Yuto Muromatsu (early 20s) stopped playing internationally after moving to Germany. He recently moved back to Japan, and now plays in JTTL.

- Weixing (late 40s) used to play for a Polish club.. not sure what he does now. We see him here at the States playing Joola Teams once a year

- Joo (late 30s) retired.. but now is coming back to represent his new sponsor, Nexy. He was supposed to play China Open.. guess what - his name is not there :(

- Ma Te (mid 20s) rarely plays internationally, but does very well in the CSTTL and helps CNT to prep against other defenders. I think he can be in the top 20 if he played more

- Filus (early 30s) lost his place on the German team.. IMHO he's become too slow, and needs to get into better physical shape


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 83 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: NextLevel and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2018 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: