OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Hello all,

I decided to make a new topic on this because I know this has been asked before. However, I think it bears revisiting.

After speaking to a few choppers in the area, I have met quite a few in the area that have some very different serve strategies. Almost none of them serve to get points from the serve, which is very different than my strategy. I feel like I try to hard to do this. But when that strategy breaks down, ie I face a very good serve-returner, I start having problems.

Of these guys, only one really tries for super heavy underspin, and he is a modern defender with a 2500 forehand. And even he only occasionally serves heavy under. He others are a mixed bag of modern defenders and classic choppers all of which fall under the spectrum between chtchetinine and joo with regards to how often they attack.

What I found was, almost all of them serve with the idea that they are just going to attempt to get the ball into play. None of them are going for a point out-right, or even a week attackable return. The give moderate and long under (so it must be respected when looped), no spin (The looper tends to loop these high) or surprisingly, topspin. One of them almost exclusively serves topspin to the opposite side of his BH.

When I ask why, I get varying explanations, like "I don't want his loop to go to my FH and be too spinny." Or "I don't want him to push my serve, instead I want a medium spinny loop" or "I'm trying to encourage an attack, but not too aggressive of an attack." Which all makes sense to me.

When I serve very spinny under, I do notice I either get netted balls or a push that I then have to either push myself or attack with a bump. This is useful if wanting to push aggressively, but I'd rather chop than play a LP hitting/PB game. I do notice that Jian Li gives heavy under in hopes of a push for an aggressive bump, which then gets him in the chopping game.

I tend to play more of a classic chopping game, with maybe 3-5 attacks in a game...

So, as a chopper, how are are you serving? Do you give heavy under? Fast top? Medium under? Give us your strategy and rationale.

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All of the above! Once a serve gets returned change it up. My strategy as a chopper is never letting my opponents get into a rhythm....

A bad habit would be expecting your serve to win outright....then you are never ready...

I always try to expect the best return my opponent can possibly do off my serve...then I'm never surprised....

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Thanks leatherback.

What I'm wondering is, should I be intentionally not trying to give super spinny serves to induce an attack? One thing I tend to do is really go for it with the spin, particularly on tomahawk serves, and I often fault when trying too hard. I know I need to practice to avoid faulting, but let's assume that the faulting isn't the issue. What I wonder is if I should even bother as often as I do to put immense spin on the ball....as a classic chopper. I find that modern defenders have good reason to do this as they 3rd ball far more often than I. But what about classic choppers?

Watching Chtchetinine, it doesn't seem (eye test) that he's putting much spin on his serves. I've observed this playing vs. other choppers.

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Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

I consider myself to have pretty reasonable serves. I always try to win points from my serve and, just like you Japsican, I find that this negatively affects my game when I then come up against a player who returns my serves consistently.

One of the main problems I find with serving *well* is that, as a chopper, you will rarely get the return you want. If you serve heavy backspin, your opponent will push - usually into your pimples. This then means that a) you have to stand at the table and b) your opponent will get a floaty or even topspin return to attack. If you serve topspin, your opponent will often "block" the ball back - again, often into the pimples. These kinds of shot tend to have little spin on and can actually be quite difficult to return well with the pimples (or at all, I net these all too often).

If you serve well, and vary your serve, your opponent is much less likely to loop the ball. They'll be timid, and play more passive shots. Ideally, to get into a chopping rally, you want to serve a long, light backspin ball which they can open up from - preferably cross-court to your pimples so they're tempted to loop into your pimples.

The danger there is that some players will absolutely lash you if you try to do this. It doesn't take long for you to work this out though, so against those players you'll probably have to start serving well instead of serving "gently". Also, having the ability to serve a massively heavy backspin serve at deuce or key points of the game is obviously never a bad thing.

Also, if you're serving to attack, that's entirely different. If you want to force the game by getting your forehand in, you have to serve well. Most good players won't give you an opportunity to attack if you don't throw in a good serve. So that too is useful.

I'm definitely going to try serving more "gently" in some games. Especially in the first end - get into the rally more, get the feel for the game more. Usually I go out roaring with my best serves and two things often happen - I fault serve too frequently and give points away, and I find returns that are really difficult to play (heavy backspin pushes off my heavy backspin serves; blocked returns off topspin etc etc) and then I make mistakes on those. This leads to the feeling of "I'm playing badly", but really, I just need to give myself much more of a chance to get into the game.

Good point Japsican, I'm glad you posted this - it has made me take stock of my own game a bit!

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My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

One thing I find about serving is that you need to play against a range of players to understand what is really possible against your serves. You should be able to play effectively behind proper returns of your serve.

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I probably have about 8 serves and before everyone of them I plan out the next 4 shots. (....weather or not they pan out how I plan them is a different story lol)

I use them when I need points quick to turn the tide....

The problem with not serving really well for me is that they get crushed.

Just putting it in play may be a good idea if you opponent is just playing a control game and you plan to out control him....

I find a really really heavy backspin serve is great ESPECIALLY if they loop it....great chopping opportunity.

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The problem is, at my level, almost nobody is capable of looping my really heavy backspin serve. It always gets pushed. The push is always long, which is fine if I want to attack, but useless for getting into a chopping rally.

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_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

A strategy could be to serve the same serve several times and then switch it up suddenly with a serve that looks similar but is different. Sometimes I do a backhand backspin/sidespin serve and then a couple serves later ill do a similar motion but change the spin slightly to topsin and that way if the opponent is in the rhythm of pushing for example they can mess up. But that strategy isnt really specific to a chopper...

Sometimes I like it when players loop my serve because I can chop it.

Ive gotten a lot of points some games from serving with my pips. I do a motion that looks like it has a lot of spin, like sometimes I make it look like I am doing a backspin serve and then the opponents will push the ball and pop it up and Ill just kill it. That works a lot of times.You can do tomahawk serves with the pips, underspin, whatever. Just make it look real spinny and the opponent might pop it up or might hit the ball out
sometimes it just throws people off to hit pips serves and when you serve with pips the motion is kind of weird of the ball, and it can cause the opponent to easily error.

One thing ive found is its pretty easy to serve short with the pips also, so that is good for not loosing on the serve!

But I dont play anyone who is over 2000 so maybe my strategy is no good for higher rated players. Ill be in a tournament with high level players in a couple months and then maybe ill have new things to say :p

The key to a good serve is to mix it up in spin, depth and height. The opponent must never know what's coming at them. If you serve short, you can do with the ball whatever you want because they are in the table. Serve half long and they need to loop weakly. Serve deep to mix it up, preferably with considerable backspin.

If you want to chop, make sure their first or second ball results into a weak loop. Make them rally: that's what you're good at! If you want to attack, you certainly need sidespin to force them to place the ball in the right position. Most players try to do a magnificent serve, while the most important thing is placement.

As my play style is somehow mixed between a chopper and an attacker (I twiddle a lot, it means some rallies are played only with the smooth rubber for example (receive with the FH normal rubber push, then, expecting a push to the pips, twiddle and play a BH topspin) ) my serve tactics won't be a lot of help for you (I love serving heavy under with or without some side and heavy side with some under, because after these serves the bump with the pips is not the nicest thing for you opponent)
But when I want to start a chopping rally I do use a couple of serves in particular.
So the first is a backhand serve with a lot of side and some under. The serve must be low and mostly placed to the FH of my opponent, because such serve can be received with a banana so better place it not in the BH of the opponent (or occasionally long to the BH). Most of the times this serve is being pushed and it comes to me with a little under and some side which is a great combination for me to chop with the pimples and to give my opponent a medium fast low ball with some sidespin left on it. If he tries to push/chop it it could mean trouble for him so most of the times with this a chopping rally can be started (the ball, if placed well, isn't easy to be attacked with power so most of my opponents go for the spin and control).
The other thing is serving a good topspin(with side, better a kick-serve) serve to your opponents BH. If the serve is placed well the receive won't be a killer and you'll start a defensive rally.
A friend of mine(he's a defender, not like me) uses a lot of serves with the pips. In his serves the placement means everything. If the serve is placed right - the opponent will initiate with a rather slow not killing loop and the defence rally can be started

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This is why attempting to mimic the strategies of top players/pros is not always the best approach. You have to adopt a strategy that is appropriate for your level, otherwise you'll never advance! I have the same issue, so I'm speaking from experience...

Here's an interesting little wrinkle I've found that I call the defender's dilemma:

Take two imaginary players, both at a 1500ish rating...One is a gifted attacker with a 2000+ quality loop, the other is a defensive player with a 2000+ quality chop. Who do you think will have more opportunities to display their strength? Unfortunately for the defender, it will most certainly be the attacker. A loop is a stroke that you impose against the opponent--one that can be used against any ball that happens to go long.

A chop, however, requires the opponent to initiate. A smart opponent can simply stop looping and completely nullify your strongest stroke. This problem is further compounded with the exact problem you're facing: most players at the 1500 level aren't capable of consistently looping strong underspin. They nullify your strongest stroke by default, no tactics needed! This is why defenders must be so well-rounded. An attacker can get away with being a "one trick pony" a lot longer than a defender can.

My best advice is to give up on getting into those epic loop/chop rallies. Instead, focus on mastering your short game and developing a strong attack of your own. Chopping is fun and it's fun to practice, but it's usually the last thing lower level defenders need to work on...

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Yeah, I know what you mean... and that's what I've always done.

As a result now, I've plateau'd somewhat. I'm a defender who can't really defend very consistently. More accurately, I'm an attacker who can't really block on one side and has a major penhold-esque weakness where opponents can pin me into my backhand as soon as I start trying to attack, or they can push off serve into my backhand to force me into playing a weak (or exposed) loop.

It's not about "getting into epic chopping rallies" really. It's about trying to get as much advantage out of your style as possible. It's absolutely no benefit for me to have to constantly attack my opponents because I need to be 25-50% better than them to be able to successfully attack all match when I've got pimples on one side. If I can get into a defensive game for the most part then change things up by suddenly springing an attack on my opponent, then I've got much more chance of winning points with my attacks.

I think it's really important that "modern defenders" practice both of these things. I can attack well, and I can serve to attack well. Now though I'm at a point where if I get into a defensive rally, my opponent will often win because I'm just not consistent enough. If I had the defensive ability of our league's top classical defender PLUS my ability to attack, I genuinely think I'd be one of the best players in the league. But I'm not. I have far too many weaknesses that my opponent can exploit.

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My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

If your opponent pushes your serve you don't have to push back Or loop, you can pick it up over the net with the long pips. I've been doing that more and it can be pretty effective at throwing off the opponent. The ball ends up going over and then kinda dies, and can usually place it well to make it hard to get.

Apologies if I came off as preachy; I just happen to be in the same boat as you and I'm speaking for myself as much as I am to you

I have the same issue with consistency. Not a good thing for a defender! I've found twiddling to be very effective for people who try to pin me down on my backhand, but that opens up a whole new can of worms as you've now doubled the strokes you need to learn.

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I would encourage BOGEYHUNTER to come on this thread and comment, 10 years ago, a ten minute talk from him, a ten minute failed serve session, and a year of practice alone in Iraq built the current serve game i have that is a real strength.

Regardless of which exact serves you would prefer, like Leatherback notes, don't allow an opponent to get set, keep them off balance. Change up spins and placements. However, it is real important that to have variation, you must show heavy spin, so that when you pull out the carpet, it is different - that applies to your level and as much as 4 levels up. At that level, you will get by with only a slight difference, but that is still huge.

Look at the way I serve vs you... I show heavy right away to get it established in opponent's mind that my underspin is heavy, they push it (after they net it a few times) then when they return it, I do a real heavy topspin and it is over. Then later, I pull out the no spin/light spin variation (with a few short or fast deep topspin) and gun away at the return with a fast loop kill.

My serves are designed to get points right away, but that is not my end objective. That would be to establish a pattern, get an opponent used to that pattern (but not dominate me on return), then break that pattern unexpectedly, thus to keep opponent guessing. After a while, that will wear down an opponent forcing them into two choices - Surrender, or Die (by going for excessively risky shots) That is the objective of a campaign of war. Either way, if you can keep opponent off balance, you will get free points and easy opportunities.

Always have a plan for how you would handle a ball, but don't be so dead set expecting that or you lose points. Be flexible and have a few fallbacks. I have no problem being called a chicken by my fellow attacking friends when I do not attack (vs a ball I decide I wasn't ready for or decided that percentages were not there for me or I was not confident on that ball), sometimes, retreating isn't being a coward, it is moving to a more effective place to attack or ambush opponent.

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