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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2017, 19:59 
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Our club has an internal tournament for recreational players, sort of. Players get points after freely competing each other and there's a score-list which equals ranking. Sure, they're not doing it due to ambitiousness but they live up from the reward, it definitely gives them more pleasure to play.

The regular competition players do have a club-championship once a year, those interested compete in a tournament-style championship for fun and places. Albeit there's no real rating involved they often form 2 groups, one with the higher ranked players and one with the lower ranked.
Apart from this championship there's the national ELO-score (to which I am usually referring to in my blog) but I have trouble comparing this ELO to the German TTR or the USATT, at least at the sub 1650 ELO-level. That said, the German players TTR-strength also depends on the region where they play, so there's quite a variation in playing strength even if the TTR-score is the same.
Beeing somewhat ambitious, I do use this ELO as a reference mainly to get an orientation on where I am and to where I need to go, because actually I still feel underrated and undervalued. Beating players with 100+ points easily and getting a 87% win-rate in the league just underlines my claim to play higher.

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2017, 20:22 
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GMan4911 wrote:
Rankings and ratings have been around since the beginning of organized table tennis and it has not proven to be the catalyst needed to popularize the sport in a major way.

Table tennis, at least in the US, is mostly played in basements/garages. The competition is primarily family or friends. The majority of people in the US are not even aware that there are tournaments, hence, most people have no clue about competitive table tennis. The few who develop a deeper love for the game seek out clubs to get more competition and variety of players. There, they discover leagues and tournaments.

Most club owners aren't focused on popularizing the sport per se. Most are primarily focused on just eking out a living by providing coaching, classes, and a place to play. Some clubs aren't even profit oriented, they're just a group of people who meet to play at the local rec center. I feel like they could do more, like holding more events such as tournaments and weekly leagues and advertising their events to make the general public more aware of their presence. The clubs also need to have events geared towards the less competitive people i.e. more for fun and socializing. The most successful club in my area, MDTTC, has been doing a decent job at it, and the other clubs are having varying levels of success.

The post I made earlier about more prize money doesn't apply just at the top levels. If there were more small local tournaments/leagues with cash prizes at all levels, that would help popularize the sport. Weekend warriors who win the small events brag about it to their friends. That might pique their friends interest, enough to get them to play.

For long term growth, more needs to be done to get kids interested. The majority of kids in the US develop interest through their parents and the majority are immigrants from countries where table tennis is more popular. Unlike the major sports, there are no televised events and no exposure to high level players that they can idolize. So another thing that can be done is to televise the championship matches of our two biggest events, the US Open & the US Nationals. The events need to be covered at the national level, not just at the local level. Table Tennis gets zero coverage even on the all sports channels. USATT needs to hire better marketing people.


All the above is true, small tournaments would indeed attract some of the "social pong" players. But it misses the point of ratings. True, ratings by themselves don't attract people to the sport, a great deal more has to happen before table tennis can begin to be as widely popular as, say, basketball or baseball, with schools competing against each other, people holding huge summer camps, scholarships being available to play in college, etc. What ratings do, however, is HELP people organize more inclusive tournaments. With a ratings system you CAN EASILY set up skills classes, and you can do this on a large scale. I've attended "regional" tournaments where there were upwards of 50 tables occupying a convention center over two days - tournaments like this happen pretty often in the US, even, as you say, people who play "social pong" aren't aware of them. Should there be smaller, more frequent tournaments for these people? Sure! Does that mean a ratings system is not useful to someone who wants to promote table tennis? NO. If you're going to set up leagues and smaller tournaments a ratings system is a great way to get started. Sure, a lot of the social players won't have ratings, but it doesn't mean you can't assign estimated ratings to them. They can get proper ratings later on when they enter their first USATT tournament, and if you did a good job, their estimated rating would be close to what they end up with.

As for TV and ESPN and whatnot - it's popular to throw eggs at USATT and ITTF, but I'd argue the situation today is far better than it was just ten years ago. For one, we've got table tennis at the Olympics. And I can turn on the TV and maybe a quarter of the time there'll be a ITTF World Tour match going on. Or I could spend hours watching matches on YouTube or ITTV and not run out of stuff to watch. There was live streaming of the US Team Selection some time back on YouTube. Yeah, these videos are mainly aimed at table tennis enthusiasts, the general public isn't aware of them (I mean, Channel 852 on satellite TV isn't exactly mainstream either), but it's chicken and egg. Getting matches on TV isn't going to guarantee popularity, either. It's the other way around.

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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2017, 00:08 
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RE: sport popularity, I agree and disagree with certain things from each of you.

The TV thing is definitely a chicken/egg scenario because no network will air something unless it can sell advertising, and TT isn't popular enough to garner ratings. It just isn't.

At the same time, you need tools to encourage participation and garner interest. So, TV is possible if it's packaged with something else that sells like it is in the Olympics. I like GMan's suggestoin of having more regular events for money, not necessarily tournaments, but leagues as well.

Regular people are not going to care enough to tune in to US TT unless Kanak Jha can win a medal in the Olympics, or win a world championship. So successful players will help with popularity, and the only way to do that is to cultivate them despite having fewer individuals to select from in the US talent pool.

It's a tough one. Only thing I can think of is that we up the level and standard in the US to something somewhat respectable...I think we can achieve a fair level (Think Denmark, Sweden, England) and then hope for a Waldner-like prodigy to sprout up. Only then will we be able to ride that person's coat tails to popularizing the sport. After that, poaching players from other countries who become US citizens is the only way to make this happen, and if that happens their impact is lessened.

Re: Ratings themselves
The ratings systems themselves are a necessary evil for organizaton and logistics, but don't directly contribute to popularity. We need metrics of some kind however imperfect to monitor levels, improvement. It would be nice to have the exact same ratings tool adopted by all nations so we can compare apples to apples.

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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2017, 09:47 
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lionto wrote:
From all your inputs, I sensed that competition players are more interested in Ratings/Rankings, while recreation players do not care less about them.
I think it would help the game if recreation players have a rating/ ranking. I keep marvelling at the handicap system used in golf. Almost every golf player including those purely recreation players who do not watch and participate in tournaments has a handicap and has to maintain their handicaps even when playing amongst themselves. Although the same 4 players play with each other almost every week, any new player can fit into the group easily. That I think is the real benefit of their handicap system.
Hence I think a players rating/ranking system in TT will help encourage players to mix around and play with each other (for all players, competition and recreation players), helping and popularising the game in the long term. Of course this must be implemented together with a myriad of other supporting and promotional events.
If only ... we can have a rating/ranking system commonly accepted and adopted and make this work.


Your analogy doesn't really make sense. Golf is you vs a (more or less) unchanging course/courses which is why any new player can fit easily into a group. TT is you vs the guy on the other side of the table. Throw a new guy into a group of experienced players and, well, you could play a handicap but that's not much fun.

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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2017, 18:11 
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Yes, I realised that the handicap system of golf is based on minimum changes in the yardstick, a golf course have the same degree of difficulty unless changes are made to the course. In TT the yardstick is based on a combination of many players, the more the better. The ITTF ratings is pretty accurate considering all the players rated has played many games amongst themselves and ratings are arrived at after playing with multiple players all of whom have a rating themselves. Golf's handicap system has an inherent weakness in that one golf course differ quite substantially from another, while TT's rating system weakness is that player's plays are not consistent, sometimes they play well, sometimes not.
Actually I am not saying that TT ratings should be based on a variation of golfs handicap system. Rather I just marvel that golfs is one system, universally accepted with pros and casual players and most important, it seems to work well.
What about TT ratings? All players should play many rating games while sticking to only one standardise rating system - then it would be more accurate and perhaps can serve a more useful purpose for recreation play.

If a Div 5 player is thrown in with Div 1 players, of course nothing works - the gulf is too wide. Similarly I don't think a handicap 2 player would like to play a golf game with a 24 handicapper. Rating systems are only useful for those with small gaps in playing standards, perhaps 1 level difference.


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2017, 02:06 
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Heh... just noticed.

https://tabletennis.guide/rating_ittf.p ... &year=2017

Ding Ning's (Womens' #1) rating is 3378. Change over to the men and Ma Long's is only 3343! Apparently the womens' and mens' international ratings are on different scales! Maybe this is because, in International tournaments, unlike in American tournaments, men and women don't ever get the chance to play each other so there's no way to establish a unified ratings scale. USATT ratings are unified when it comes to gender.

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PostPosted: 15 Aug 2017, 21:36 
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I have updated my comparison charts among the different categories in the world. If it can help.


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PostPosted: 16 Aug 2017, 07:22 
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re the updated comparison charts. For Australia, Will Goodier is no longer president of TTA, it is Phil Males. TTA now uses Ratings Central for rankings.

The number 1 ranked Australian man (as at July) has RC 2328.
The number 20 ranked Australian man (as at July) has RC 1798.

The number 1 ranked Australian woman (as at July) has RC 2224.
The number 20 ranked Australian woman (as at July has RC 1263

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PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 16:09 
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Perhaps we have missed one basic purpose of players ratings.
This is to find suitable players to play with (not compete) and to enjoy a game, any time, any day, anywhere.
After all, in every sports, there will be no enjoyment at all when the skill levels are so vast in disparity.

Fortunately / unfortunately TT is quite localised.
And the local rating systems can be used with good effect.
If it is not, then there would be a need to 'convert' one rating system to another.


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PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 16:42 
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On a local, day to day basis this seems to sort itself out over time, even within a club or a social setting. The good players tend to want to play each other, the not-so-good ones will want to play each other also. (Frustrating if you're a not-so-good player playing where there's only one table and 2-3 good players who don't want to play against you.. :lol: ) It WOULD be very useful, in the local setting, for organizing such things as leagues and small tournaments, where you have a fairly large number of players, not all of whom know each other. And it REALLY comes into its own when it comes to organizing huge numbers of players, such as large national/regional tournaments, though.

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PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 17:41 
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Within 'your own' set of clubs in your locality, you don't need any ranking systems,
as you said, players themselves sort it out who to play with.
When you walk into a different set-up, that's where you need some sort of ranking to start with.

But ranking system is not for recreation players.
It is for competition players where a good ranking system would be great help.


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