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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2017, 19:04 
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I guessed it's the same in Australia, the game is popular among immigrant community. But I don't have stats as proofs.
But then again, immigrants outnumber born Australians by far.

pgpg, would you comment on whether by having a USATT number helps in recreation play / or perhaps none at all?


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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2017, 23:15 
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In the US, table tennis is definitely a niche sport. To be honest, it's a niche sport anywhere outside China. It is BECAUSE it is a niche sport that it can accommodate large participatory tournaments like the US Open (or whatever it is they call it these days). I can't imagine having such tournaments in lawn tennis, for instance - you can't open up Wimbledon to club level players. At the same time table tennis isn't nearly big enough to afford anything like Wimbledon.. prize money for even the World Champs is paltry in comparison.

So why are American table tennis tournaments​ comparatively​bigger than those in the rest of the world? I think the answer is simple.. they have and use the ratings system. Even lower level players can participate at their own level. From what I gather, in the rest of the world, lower level players mainly participate in leagues rather than play in tournaments, that's not necessarily bad. In fact they're trying to organize the same types of leagues​ in the US (leagues do exist, but it is a club-by-club thing, or was when I was there). But I feel that the rest of the world should also organize US style tournaments with ratings classes if they want better participation.

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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2017, 00:12 
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iskandar taib wrote:
In the US, table tennis is definitely a niche sport. To be honest, it's a niche sport anywhere outside China. It is BECAUSE it is a niche sport that it can accommodate large participatory tournaments like the US Open (or whatever it is they call it these days). I can't imagine having such tournaments in lawn tennis, for instance - you can't open up Wimbledon to club level players. At the same time table tennis isn't nearly big enough to afford anything like Wimbledon.. prize money for even the World Champs is paltry in comparison.

So why are American table tennis tournaments​ comparatively​bigger than those in the rest of the world? I think the answer is simple.. they have and use the ratings system. Even lower level players can participate at their own level. From what I gather, in the rest of the world, lower level players mainly participate in leagues rather than play in tournaments, that's not necessarily bad. In fact they're trying to organize the same types of leagues​ in the US (leagues do exist, but it is a club-by-club thing, or was when I was there). But I feel that the rest of the world should also organize US style tournaments with ratings classes if they want better participation.

Iskandar


Iskandar has a point - rating system allows tournament events to be split by skill and thus make it fair and enjoyable for lower level players. Don't think it's unique to US, though - looks like there are 'bands' in UK tournaments, and I'm sure Germany has this too, although I get a feeling it's much more league-oriented there.

As a quick aside - Open tournaments in other sports are somewhat open to regular people, you just have to qualify. US Open in golf has a series of qualification events (and I believe certain number of slots is reserved to amateurs). But yes, they don't have 20+ handicap events at USGA Open :).

As far as whether ratings help or hurt - I think it's a bit fuzzy. They definitely help competitive players (IMHO) - you now have something to track your progress with. On a flip side, I know some people who begin to obsess about their rating - only play in higher events, strategically defaulting etc., so it's not all rainbows.

Ratings are probably neutral or a slight impediment to recreational players. Even at the club level I know plenty of folks who do not play tournaments or league - they just not interested in competition, treating TT as a social activity.

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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2017, 07:32 
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Here in Australia, NSW in particular,

The NSW Open and Closed tournaments have Mens singles & doubles, Womens singles and doubles, and mixed doubles.
Then there are graded events A, B, C, D & E with singles and sometimes combined doubles (B/C & D/E). These grades previously were that you were in a grade until you won a tournament in it or came runner up a certain number of times. More recently the grades have been redefined to be under certain RC ratiings.

The national championships (juniors in age groups, seniors and U21, veterans in age groups) have 2 sections: the states and territories put together A and sometimes B (and occasionally C) 3 person teams that play each other along with what is called presidents teams for those that don't fit in their state/territory team to see which state/territory is best. Then the individual singles and doubles events are played. Mostly those who play in the individual events are those who were in the state/territory teams, but as long as you pay the entry fee, get your entry form endorsed by your state and qualify for the entry criteria (residency or citizenship or whatever) you can play the individual events.

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2017, 01:36 
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Yeah, the problem is you have to be pretty good to qualify. So there's no real competitive outlet for the lower level club players. I'm sure the lawn tennis people have SOMETHING figured out, perhaps skill classes in city or county level tournaments. The USATT ratings system came from chess - another sport where, presumably, they have ratings divisions at tournaments. They probably have SOME tournaments open to the lowest levels, and perhaps some that are only open to the highest ratings divisions.

Aside from winning trophies and medals, a ratings-based tournament system also allows players of all levels to compete for ratings points. Even if you don't win any of the divisions you enter, you can still, if you play well, go up in the ratings. I wish they'd start something like this here - all they have here for lower level players are things like company tournaments and school tournaments. You're likely to get creamed by someone, or you find yourself totally outclassing your work-mates.

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2017, 10:28 
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Plenty of competitive outlet for lower level club players in Aus - just not at the state and national level. Which is fair enough.

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2017, 13:36 
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I'd argue that holding lower-rated category events at National and State tournaments will boost attendance greatly. Someone might not be inclined to fly or drive several hours and stay in a hotel just to watch games (even if they're championship games at the National and State levels) but they'd be willing to do that if they could enter in two or three ratings events plus maybe the Open. On top of that, if you can attract a crowd of players from a variety of locations and of disparate skill levels to your Nationals, this would help towards establishing a country-wide, cross-validated ratings system.

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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2017, 11:17 
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True. Its not uncommon for state closed to be run adjacent to the host club's open, so that covers most of what you described.

Can't recall if the national open/closed does it.

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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2017, 13:38 
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As an aside - I was reminded of the huge gulf between even beginner players and the public in general when they set up a table in one of the shopping malls over the Chinese New Year period, left out a couple rackets and a ball and invited passers-by to play. It was up for something like two weeks. One evening I came to watch a movie and ended up hitting around with some beginners - they had Butterfly Addoy bats and were able to push and hit slowish topspin drives. I decided to come back the next night with some of my own bats, but they weren't around. So I hit with random "challengers" from the passing crowd. Most couldn't even get the ball back if I put any sort of weak spin on it. There were a couple of exceptions - a tourist from Korea who would once in a while put a ball past me but couldn't handle any sort of moderate spin, for instance. I ended up dinking high balls back at everyone so they could dink it back. Quite a disappointing evening. If I do this again I'll bring hardbats.

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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2017, 16:10 
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The gulf between non-playing public and seasoned players are great in every sport.
I remembered in a fun fair some non playing public couldn't kick a football properly.
We need the increase the number of recreation players and educate them to appreciate the finer points of the game.
Only then perhaps, they would go to watch competitive play. More crowds, better sponsorships.
Most recreation player would not approach competition players to have a stroke. But I have seen many competition players would oblige if they are approached and would even give pointers. Of course there are those who will not. My club encourage inter-play by verbal appeal to all to mix and play. But this is not enough.
However we must be aware of the intrinsic entertainment value in TT. While sell-out crowds pay about $15 to $25 to watch AFL and soccer games, TT only commands very small crowds.
So hopefully player ranking and rating helps in the appreciation of inter-play and thereby help promote the game further.


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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2017, 17:08 
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We use the ratings central system at our club as it appears to be a better way to grade players rather than just on win /loss % as we previously did.

This coming season looks like we are going to have 84 players over 5 divisions. I think you'd find that nearly 50% of these players would be below a rating of 100, thats right, 100 whilst we only have 2 players above 1,000. :o Despite being a competitive environment with teams, league, premierships etc, it remains a social family orientated club at the core.

We don't tend to do ratings for the bottom 3rd otherwise some would nearly be negative.

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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2017, 18:13 
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We don't tend to do ratings for the bottom 3rd otherwise some would nearly be negative.
Agree. These players would be discouraged by ratings. Anyway they are not interested in any ratings themselves.

What would be the co-relation with Ratings Central vs USATT vs ITTF ratings? 1,000 Rating Central would be equivalent to how much USATT / ITTF points?


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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2017, 00:30 
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From what I hear, Ratings Central ratings are very local in nature, because you don't have many players playing competitively away from home. USATT ratings get homogenized over the US because there ARE several very large national level tournaments where people will travel. Still, even in the US, you do hear of "ratings inflation" in this or that region, where there's less cross-border competition traffic.

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2017, 01:13 
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Rankings and ratings have been around since the beginning of organized table tennis and it has not proven to be the catalyst needed to popularize the sport in a major way.

Table tennis, at least in the US, is mostly played in basements/garages. The competition is primarily family or friends. The majority of people in the US are not even aware that there are tournaments, hence, most people have no clue about competitive table tennis. The few who develop a deeper love for the game seek out clubs to get more competition and variety of players. There, they discover leagues and tournaments.

Most club owners aren't focused on popularizing the sport per se. Most are primarily focused on just eking out a living by providing coaching, classes, and a place to play. Some clubs aren't even profit oriented, they're just a group of people who meet to play at the local rec center. I feel like they could do more, like holding more events such as tournaments and weekly leagues and advertising their events to make the general public more aware of their presence. The clubs also need to have events geared towards the less competitive people i.e. more for fun and socializing. The most successful club in my area, MDTTC, has been doing a decent job at it, and the other clubs are having varying levels of success.

The post I made earlier about more prize money doesn't apply just at the top levels. If there were more small local tournaments/leagues with cash prizes at all levels, that would help popularize the sport. Weekend warriors who win the small events brag about it to their friends. That might pique their friends interest, enough to get them to play.

For long term growth, more needs to be done to get kids interested. The majority of kids in the US develop interest through their parents and the majority are immigrants from countries where table tennis is more popular. Unlike the major sports, there are no televised events and no exposure to high level players that they can idolize. So another thing that can be done is to televise the championship matches of our two biggest events, the US Open & the US Nationals. The events need to be covered at the national level, not just at the local level. Table Tennis gets zero coverage even on the all sports channels. USATT needs to hire better marketing people.


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2017, 08:48 
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From all your inputs, I sensed that competition players are more interested in Ratings/Rankings, while recreation players do not care less about them.
I think it would help the game if recreation players have a rating/ ranking. I keep marvelling at the handicap system used in golf. Almost every golf player including those purely recreation players who do not watch and participate in tournaments has a handicap and has to maintain their handicaps even when playing amongst themselves. Although the same 4 players play with each other almost every week, any new player can fit into the group easily. That I think is the real benefit of their handicap system.
Hence I think a players rating/ranking system in TT will help encourage players to mix around and play with each other (for all players, competition and recreation players), helping and popularising the game in the long term. Of course this must be implemented together with a myriad of other supporting and promotional events.
If only ... we can have a rating/ranking system commonly accepted and adopted and make this work.


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