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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 19:54 
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So here we arrive at the 'post a video of yourself' remark. The TT forum equivalent of a Hitler comparison.

You were not just using videos to demonstrate the technique you were talking about, you were using them as evidence against what others had posted. 'that is simply incorrect' post.

Think nextlevel may be correct in that you were talking about a pause in between strokes and not between backswing and swing. In which case I would say you are correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 20:16 
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wtf. We arrive at the 'post a video of yourself' remark because of your:

"It's also a bad idea to observe a game or training situation and extrapolate rules based on your observations, as it often lacks context."

I am not extrapolating 'rules' based on my 'observations', I can actually do it and so understand how these things work in practice.

The line - "It's also a bad idea to observe a game or training situation and extrapolate rules based on your observations, as it often lacks context." - can be used at anytime against anyone (including yourself) on a forum. It is rude and it serves no purpose.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 20:48 
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Watching Zhang Jike.. I don't see him pausing at the end of the backswing except maybe twice, though. But he does seem to have an awfully slow backswing sometimes. He does do all the stuff Brett talks about, though - the body leads the arm, and starts its rotation before the arm reaches the full extent of the backswing. I don't think a pause per se is wrong, but the end of the backswing isn't the time to do it. In a game you often don't know which way the return is going to go, you definitely do want to pause in a neutral position so you can cover both sides. As Brett says, if you start the backswing too early, then you're forced to stop at the end of the backswing, and don't get the benefit of the whip motion and are forced to use arm muscles for acceleration.

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 21:43 
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carbonman wrote:
wtf. We arrive at the 'post a video of yourself' remark because of your:

"It's also a bad idea to observe a game or training situation and extrapolate rules based on your observations, as it often lacks context."

I am not extrapolating 'rules' based on my 'observations', I can actually do it and so understand how these things work in practice.

The line - "It's also a bad idea to observe a game or training situation and extrapolate rules based on your observations, as it often lacks context." - can be used at anytime against anyone (including yourself) on a forum. It is rude and it serves no purpose.


I'm sorry that you took offence to my statement, but it was stated politely and it was not meant to be rude. If you're going to complain about rudeness, maybe you should re-read your post in response to Iskander where you said he was 'simply incorrect', when he wasn't as he was clearly not talking about pausing between strokes. I found that particularly rude. I think you have a double standard for your behaviour vs everyone else's.

This is turning into a silly contest, so maybe I'll just leave it at that. The confusion between pausing between strokes vs during strokes should now be clarified.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 22:00 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Watching Zhang Jike.. I don't see him pausing at the end of the backswing except maybe twice, though. But he does seem to have an awfully slow backswing sometimes. He does do all the stuff Brett talks about, though - the body leads the arm, and starts its rotation before the arm reaches the full extent of the backswing. I don't think a pause per se is wrong, but the end of the backswing isn't the time to do it. In a game you often don't know which way the return is going to go, you definitely do want to pause in a neutral position so you can cover both sides. As Brett says, if you start the backswing too early, then you're forced to stop at the end of the backswing, and don't get the benefit of the whip motion and are forced to use arm muscles for acceleration.

Iskandar


Yes, that is my understanding within a game situation too. Carbonman, however, seems to be saying that you shouldn't recover to a perfect neutral position, but instead maintain a forhand oriented position. He then shows Zhang Jike doing just that.

Zhang is practicing forhands and is expecting forhands, so he maintains that position. Chinese players try to maintain forhand dominance when they have the opportunity to do so. They are very fast and can keep the ball on their forhands side very well.

That however does not mean that we should do that within our game situations. We will get into trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 22:52 
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WorkoutMontage wrote:
iskandar taib wrote:
Watching Zhang Jike.. I don't see him pausing at the end of the backswing except maybe twice, though. But he does seem to have an awfully slow backswing sometimes. He does do all the stuff Brett talks about, though - the body leads the arm, and starts its rotation before the arm reaches the full extent of the backswing. I don't think a pause per se is wrong, but the end of the backswing isn't the time to do it. In a game you often don't know which way the return is going to go, you definitely do want to pause in a neutral position so you can cover both sides. As Brett says, if you start the backswing too early, then you're forced to stop at the end of the backswing, and don't get the benefit of the whip motion and are forced to use arm muscles for acceleration.

Iskandar


Yes, that is my understanding within a game situation too. Carbonman, however, seems to be saying that you shouldn't recover to a perfect neutral position, but instead maintain a forhand oriented position. He then shows Zhang Jike doing just that.

Zhang is practicing forhands and is expecting forhands, so he maintains that position. Chinese players try to maintain forhand dominance when they have the opportunity to do so. They are very fast and can keep the ball on their forhands side very well.

That however does not mean that we should do that within our game situations. We will get into trouble.


The forehand oriented position you day ZJKis in, if a fasr ball comes to his backhand, he will swing his shoulders around his left foot and play a backhand. Many players don't have the training to do that as well as he does.

It is possible to pause at the end of the backswing when counterlooping as part of a delayed whip sequence where the body activates the stroke late as you pointed out.

I do think that carbonman's point about the lack of reset to a ready position in the original stroke is very important. I had been trying incorporste reset unsuccessfully inyo my stroke later and it has taken time. I am not 100% there but it is getting better. But I was told to reset by both carbonman and Brett years ago. I just didn't fully appreciate their points then. Resetting is very important for building a concept of readiness which is critical when you are not sure where the ball is going, which happens when you play better players who can violate your shot placement expectations. I have found a lot more of it is in the body and shoulders than in the arm.

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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 01:51 
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And watching some more - there's a difference between the first set of loops and the second. The first is where he seems a little tentative, and does pause slightly a couple times at the end of the backswing. Maybe he's getting warmed up or getting calibrated. The second set, he's doing maybe 85-90% effort loops and implements the catapult to a greater degree, but I don't think he's hit the maximum yet. Maybe the coach said something to him between the two sets, or maybe he always works up to it that way. The 100% effort loops probably involve more hip and greater arm speed, and he probably doesn't do them several times in a row like he does these - they're for ending a point.

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 07:40 
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NextLevel wrote:
WorkoutMontage wrote:
iskandar taib wrote:
Watching Zhang Jike.. I don't see him pausing at the end of the backswing except maybe twice, though. But he does seem to have an awfully slow backswing sometimes. He does do all the stuff Brett talks about, though - the body leads the arm, and starts its rotation before the arm reaches the full extent of the backswing. I don't think a pause per se is wrong, but the end of the backswing isn't the time to do it. In a game you often don't know which way the return is going to go, you definitely do want to pause in a neutral position so you can cover both sides. As Brett says, if you start the backswing too early, then you're forced to stop at the end of the backswing, and don't get the benefit of the whip motion and are forced to use arm muscles for acceleration.

Iskandar


Yes, that is my understanding within a game situation too. Carbonman, however, seems to be saying that you shouldn't recover to a perfect neutral position, but instead maintain a forhand oriented position. He then shows Zhang Jike doing just that.

Zhang is practicing forhands and is expecting forhands, so he maintains that position. Chinese players try to maintain forhand dominance when they have the opportunity to do so. They are very fast and can keep the ball on their forhands side very well.

That however does not mean that we should do that within our game situations. We will get into trouble.


The forehand oriented position you day ZJKis in, if a fasr ball comes to his backhand, he will swing his shoulders around his left foot and play a backhand. Many players don't have the training to do that as well as he does.

It is possible to pause at the end of the backswing when counterlooping as part of a delayed whip sequence where the body activates the stroke late as you pointed out.

I do think that carbonman's point about the lack of reset to a ready position in the original stroke is very important. I had been trying incorporste reset unsuccessfully inyo my stroke later and it has taken time. I am not 100% there but it is getting better. But I was told to reset by both carbonman and Brett years ago. I just didn't fully appreciate their points then. Resetting is very important for building a concept of readiness which is critical when you are not sure where the ball is going, which happens when you play better players who can violate your shot placement expectations. I have found a lot more of it is in the body and shoulders than in the arm.


I agree with you and carbonman about resetting, there was just a misunderstanding about what was being said in the initial few posts.

However I must clarify this: I didn't say that Zhang pauses in the middle of the back swing. Instead I was saying that the back swing is defined by body movement instead of arm movement.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 08:38 
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I think one thing you could try is initiating the forward right hip rotation slightly before the arm swing. Your hip rotation timing is off on some strokes. You can then let the body rotation support and move your arm more so you can relax the arm more in the forward swing. This should lead to a more relaxed and faster swing.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 09:07 
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I think too tense


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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 11:17 
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As Brett says in the video - relaxation comes from good technique, not the other way around. Telling someone to relax won't do much good. Get the timing and technique right, the relaxation will come.

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 18:29 
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iskandar taib wrote:
As Brett says in the video - relaxation comes from good technique, not the other way around. Telling someone to relax won't do much good. Get the timing and technique right, the relaxation will come.

Iskandar
I did see that and have given a bit of thought. Obviously Brett is 10 x more qualified then me however I tend to disagree with this comment. I'll give an example.

Someone at the club had a stiff locked wrist when doing backhand, not unlike the vid in the OP. I tried to get him to do the whip thing but wasn't able to. It wasn't until I grabbed his forearm, told him to relax his wrist, then I swung his arm to hit a ball, all he did was let his wrist be floppy and momentum did the rest. So in this case, getting him to relax did the trick. You could probably mount a case to the contrary however I think it's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario.



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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 00:07 
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Cobalt wrote:
iskandar taib wrote:
As Brett says in the video - relaxation comes from good technique, not the other way around. Telling someone to relax won't do much good. Get the timing and technique right, the relaxation will come.

Iskandar
I did see that and have given a bit of thought. Obviously Brett is 10 x more qualified then me however I tend to disagree with this comment. I'll give an example.

Someone at the club had a stiff locked wrist when doing backhand, not unlike the vid in the OP. I tried to get him to do the whip thing but wasn't able to. It wasn't until I grabbed his forearm, told him to relax his wrist, then I swung his arm to hit a ball, all he did was let his wrist be floppy and momentum did the rest. So in this case, getting him to relax did the trick. You could probably mount a case to the contrary however I think it's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario.



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Some people can't execute good technique because they are far too tense. But some people are tense because they execute bad technique.

What Brett really meant is that the instruction to relax is not by itself sufficient to fix bad technique. You still need to install the technique. And that if the technique is correct, then relaxation is an element of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 04:20 
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Much thanks for tips and advice. Now I have exact plan what to improve first.

Happy Holidays everyone and thanks again!

Best Regards,
Ami


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 Post subject: Re: Mastering topspin
PostPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 07:42 
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Ami00 wrote:
Much thanks for tips and advice. Now I have exact plan what to improve first.

Happy Holidays everyone and thanks again!

Best Regards,
Ami
What's the plan?

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