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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 03:14 
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I regularly read topics about people explaining how the plastic ball has made it more difficult for their style, or equipment to be effective. Or it could be the ban on boosting or tuning, or the ban on frictionless pimples.

Often people are disappointed, or frustrated their equipment or tactics no longer give opponents problems and they are loosing to people they used to beat because of changes in equipment laws or rules.

Now, if you reverse this argument you could say that a big reason a player was winning or successful must have been due to the equipment they use - and that makes it unfair or frustrating for their opponents. Any rule which addresses this imbalance is therefore good?

Either way, the emphasis of the arguments are that equipment and changes to what is allowed is having a big enough effect to turn victories in to defeats.

Is this a fair argument though?
- Does a bad workman blame his tools, or changes to those tools?
- Is equipment more important than skill?
- Does equipment play a bigger role in the success of a player at beginner level or elite level?
- Is style more affected by changes in equipment rules than skill levels?


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 04:32 
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I would say the equipment matters when you reach your playing limit and than you wanna ad few percent on top of that...

it two players are nearly equal in skill than the equipment can be that decisive factor that get you the win...

if you are much better than the opponent, i dont think that any equipment will help him win...

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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 09:00 
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Interesting topic. The style based argument I find most convincing is someone like pushblocker, who has played many tournaments over a long time, and with the 40+/plastic ball says his usatt rating is down about 100 points. I don't think his skill has dropped a level, so it seems possible that the larger ball hurt his style.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 09:06 
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BRS wrote:
Interesting topic. The style based argument I find most convincing is someone like pushblocker, who has played many tournaments over a long time, and with the 40+/plastic ball says his usatt rating is down about 100 points. I don't think his skill has dropped a level, so it seems possible that the larger ball hurt his style.


It's only 100 points out of 2300, so I guess that's how much ball is worth for him, an interesting question is what's the value of the pips (probably somewhat higher).

At my level I guess it's skill that matters. I suspect I'd be more or less the same level with double inverted now if I stayed with it 2 years ago.

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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 10:54 
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The skill to use the equipment :).

The following is comments on inverted equipment, and me as a normal user of inverted equipment as per my sig.

If I were to use a hard bat I would lose to some people that I normally beat. If I were to use a reasonable inverted pre-made I would beat more people than with a hard bat, but still lose to some that I would normally beat. If I were to use say Mark V both sides I would go closer to beating most people that I normally beat but may beat some that I normally lose to.

It is not black and white because for most people the equipment they use is partly aspirational and partly practical. The devil is in the trade-off between enough spin and speed to play the flashy aspirational shots and not too much spin and speed for being able to make the run of the mill service returns and rallying shots safely. (I tried not to use the control word there.)

There is video of a pro using a mobile phone as a bat able to beat amateurs using a normal bat, and Larry Hodges is able to beat some people using a clipboard, but presumably the gap in skill level is more than enough to make up for the gap in equipment level, or alternatively, the pro and Mr. Hodges are more skilled in using their abnormal equipment than their opposition is at using their normal equipment.

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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 11:57 
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BRS wrote:
Interesting topic. The style based argument I find most convincing is someone like pushblocker, who has played many tournaments over a long time, and with the 40+/plastic ball says his usatt rating is down about 100 points. I don't think his skill has dropped a level, so it seems possible that the larger ball hurt his style.


It may be that there is more ratings deflation in the system now from 2200-2500 with more juniors being trained now reaching those levels and higher. Have the inverted adult players in that range also lost 100 rating points ?

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Cpen SOS Wood / 4H 729 802-40 2.0 / BH GD Talon use righthanded shakehand grip
HARDBAT / Shakehand Hock 3 ply / Friendship Dr Evil OX .. Play Right-handed


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 10:32 
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- Is equipment more important than skill?
Equipment is probably around 10% assuming we're not comparing against really poor pre-mades.

- Does equipment play a bigger role in the success of a player at beginner level or elite level?
For a beginner/intermediate good equipment can mask his weaknesses somewhat. For an elite it bolsters his strengths.

I like high throw blades because it's easier to clear the net :devil:

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PostPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 02:23 
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BRS wrote:
Interesting topic. The style based argument I find most convincing is someone like pushblocker, who has played many tournaments over a long time, and with the 40+/plastic ball says his usatt rating is down about 100 points. I don't think his skill has dropped a level, so it seems possible that the larger ball hurt his style.


It may very well be that the larger ball doesn't suit his style. Every change has a potential to hit someone negatively and others positively. What does he think about this?


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PostPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 06:07 
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Debater wrote:
I regularly read topics about people explaining how the plastic ball has made it more difficult for their style, or equipment to be effective. Or it could be the ban on boosting or tuning, or the ban on frictionless pimples.

Often people are disappointed, or frustrated their equipment or tactics no longer give opponents problems and they are loosing to people they used to beat because of changes in equipment laws or rules.

Now, if you reverse this argument you could say that a big reason a player was winning or successful must have been due to the equipment they use - and that makes it unfair or frustrating for their opponents. Any rule which addresses this imbalance is therefore good?

This is not a good argument. Table Tennis used to have different components. One of them was a kind of rock-paper-scissors game, where different playing styles (and the equipment that went with it) could be used to react to the playing style of the opponent and his equipment.

Let's say double inverted attack is rock, chopping is paper and pushblock is scissors.
Suddenly, the internatioal rock-paper-scissors federation introduces a new rule that says: Rock now always wins and paper now has a 30% chance of winning against scissors.
Now paper and scissors player complain because they are losing a lot more than they used to. You simply tell them: This proves that you had no skill to begin with, because you can't win without your papers and scissors.

No, it has nothing to do with their skill, it is because someone changed the rules to their disadvantage.
Perhaps they would be even better rock players than the others, if they had trained from their youth to be rock players.

Quote:
- Does a bad workman blame his tools, or changes to those tools?

You imply that the workman is bad. If someone is a good workman with the tools he has used all his life, and all of a sudden someone forces him to change the tools, and the result is worse, of course he will blame those tools.

Quote:
- Is equipment more important than skill?

No, it never has been. But no fair skill comparison is left if you prohibit one of the competitors from using his skills effectively.

Quote:
- Does equipment play a bigger role in the success of a player at beginner level or elite level?

I would say at the beginner level the role of equipment is less. At the beginner level all you have to do is bring back the ball one more time than your opponent. You can do that with any equipment, if you skill is good enough. So you can still win with a chopping game. The higher you get, the less unforced errors your opponents will make, the more you will be negatively effected e.g. by ABS balls as a chopper.

Quote:
- Is style more affected by changes in equipment rules than skill levels?

Yes, obviously. When the change from hardbat to sandwich rubbers occured, the whole style of playing table tennis changed on every level. So the style change was due to equipment, not due to skill. Just as sandwich rubbers were the death of the hardbat style, so ABS balls will be the death of chopping.


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PostPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 06:21 
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For learning, it'll be faster with better equipment compared to cheap pre-made bat.

Your game is affected by equipment. But skill is most important. I could be using Tenergy versus a higher skilled player using Mark V and still lose. Then again I could still lose with the same score with same equipment orworse. Who knows?

That's right, I am not that skilled :D


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PostPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 07:26 
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Rating level USATT 2000 below, backhand long pips is more important than inverted rubber skills.

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PostPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 21:11 
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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 03:21 
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For Ratings, Rankings and Pro or Amateur players looking for Tournament and Competition, it must be a very highly specific combination of personal equipment choice making equipment the only important choice.

The skill can be built with the right coach and spending enough to get the technique corrected, perhaps even cover or hide the obvious weaknesses.


For casual players or amateur players not looking for competition or rankings/ratings, technique will be much much more important to stay injury-free and for personal satisfaction. Equipment will be EJ'ing :-P and won't make much difference to their game, possibly they won't get any feel or improvement from switching to different equipment. Possibly high-end equipment might even be detrimental to their play-style :lol: :rofl: Causing them to rate Tenergy below a MarkV or 729 F+S III or some weird upside-down comparison. :rofl:

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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 03:21 
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Skill and caution (judgment) are number one and two in battle.

Luck happens, but usually, the more skilled and cautious you are, the more luck you get. Doesn't always happen that way, but usually does.

Relying on luck in battle is a likely path to defeat.

Preparedness is a HUGE factor, so that is training, knowing what and how you want to do given situations, knowing the enemy, and how to function in battle under pressure with or without immediate help. Preparedness I guess could fall into skill as a subset in my over simplified 2 piece theory.

Selection of equipment is very important too, you are not going to win a battle vs a tank by bringing a rifle to the fight. Of course, in TT it is not as severe, but the overarching concept of equipment selection should be selecting equipment that makes it easier to perform the most important and frequent things that keep the ball on the table, apply pressure to opponent and win points... all of which leads up to what is more destructive collectively to your opponents.

So, equipment selection is huge, but it isn't number one or two.

These things give the best possible chance. Part of caution is calculating odds, knowing risk, and managing the risk.

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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 03:26 
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Der_Echte wrote:

Selection of equipment is very important too, you are not going to win a battle vs a tank by bringing a rifle to the fight......


I BEG to differ :rofl: Hardbat player or "dead"-rubber player can TOTALLY DESTROY modern day Ma Long etc if they bring the equivalent of "bring a knife to a gun fight" :@

:devil: As long as players are FORCED to use new rubbers and new equipment certified by the ITTF for current tournaments, they all have a level playing field to compete against their peers. Skill will be just 5 - 10 % of a difference on average. It is the "boosting" etc that will give the extra 1% or 2% enough to win against the better opponent. And this is the very reason ITTF is HATED by almost ALL Players.

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Fun blades:
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