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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 02:53 
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Debater wrote:
I'm a UKCC Level 1 table tennis coach (the lowest level of officially recognised coaching standard in the UK). I can help at coaching sessions but I can't lead one on my own. Why, because I'm not considered technically qualified to do so (technically refers to generic coaching skills as well as actual technique). I seldom offer advice on threads and topic relating to coaching on this forum. Why?

1. It's not worth the hassle. Someone always has a different opinion they believe is right.
2. Being a qualified coach, I know enough to know that I don't know enough to offer advice in a forum environment.

Does that mean that others don't or shouldn't post on these types of topics?
No. Everyone has the right to offer an opinion.

Does it mean that anyone who posts on these types of topics should be believed and not challenged?
No. Everyone has the right to expect that they are receiving sound advice, advice that won't hinder their development (and often in coaching you're taught that you should only try and change a technique if the way that someone is doing something isn't working, or could be done better - textbook technique is not always the most appropriate way for everyone to play the game).

What's the relevance of this post? Simple.

- If you post on this forum, there is a good chance that you will be challenged about your opinions.
- If you post on this forum, you need to accept that other people will have different opinions to you.
- If you post on this forum, you have a responsibility to other posters not to mislead them. Helpful advice and opinions, can do more harm than good.

Who and how do you decide what's good?

If someone is new to a forum, how do you know whether the advice they give is good or bad? There is a theory about teams and the stages it goes through before it performs well - storming, forming, norming, performing. Any new poster is likely to go through all these stages on this forum - which in many ways is a team. It would be great to jump straight to "performing" but it won't happen because those earlier "unpleasant" stages are needed so that boundaries can be drawn and perceptions about the qualities people bring to a team can be assessed. It happens.

My experience

I didn't post on this forum for some time. There have been occasions when I've been torn in to after asking a question and the moderators have stepped in. There have been times when I've had my wrists slapped for being "unfair" to forum members - sometimes by moderators, other times by people who have sent me PM (personal message).

What ever the outcome, I need to build up a level of trust about the person posting - and that level of trust doesn't mean believe only those who believe the same as me. Nor does it mean repeating my comments continually until I wear someone down and they give up. Nor does it mean having to put up with what I consider to be childish school ground behaviour and name calling.

When I read comments about being challenged about "standard of play" I ask myself two simple questions to determine if it's a fair challenge - and I believe any opinion has a right to be given and a right to be challenged - and then a third, much harder one

1. If Ma Lin, William Henzell, Paul Drinkhall or Timo Boll had posted that comment and everyone knew it was them, would I react any differently to it.

and then I ask a second more subjective comment

2. Is that the type of comment I would expect someone with their table tennis experience and knowledge would make

and finally a much harder and even more subjective question

3. If that comment is left unchallenged, does it risk doing damage to this forum or it's members

And it's my answer to the third question why I'm posting now.

I started two threads in the past about "helpful posts"

Do you find equipment review "threads" helpful or confusing:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7012&hilit=+trust

What makes a good review:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27892&hilit=+trust

In both of those threads common denominators were "benchmarks" (check out the topics if you want to know who said what below)

- "knowing the standard of the player is a must."
- "An honest description of the tester's level and style also helps"
- "Of course, a good player may not necessarily give an accurate review."

and crucially this opinion was expressed
- "I am not going to stop anyone to offer their opinions on the equipment, technique etc. Just give me some idea about your level and play style so that I can evaluate it in context."

It's one of the reasons members of this forum spent some time coming up with a review template and asked reviewers to use it - it's on this forum if you search for it.

What's this got to do with this topic?

Forum members here will not take what you say at face value. You will be challenged if you post here. People will express a difference of opinon. In my case, posting although frightening at first has given me a lot more confidence and helped increase my social skills.

Not everyone will agree with everyone else and not everyone will agree when it's inappropriate. I know for a fact there have been discussion behind the scenes on this forum a number of times in the past when moderators have had different opinions on how and when to get involved in what for someone is a dispute and for someone else a discussion.

And importantly, sometimes you just need to agree to disagree and move on. Shouting, repeating arguments trying to wear people down won't work - people aren't stupid. They'll stop posting and they'll stop reading those posts.

Suggestion:

1. Before joining, consider reading this topic:
Forum Goals, Rules and Guidelines - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7074

2. If you feel you are being treated unfairly on the forum - even if it's by another moderator, consider reading this topic
Dial a Moderator - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4026&hilit=moderator

3. If you still not happy with the behaviour of a forum member or they generally annoy you, you can either
- remove their posts from threads so that "you" don't have to read them anymore - use the "friends or foe" options within your user control panel (you have to be a member to do this) faq.php#f6r1 and search for friend or foe
or
- ignore them and not post

4. If you're not happy with how you are being treated, apply to be a moderator and change the forum from within

5. If you still aren't happy, you have the right to leave the forum

Everyone has the right to choose to post or not. Everyone has the right to be treated with respect and it helps if you can look from another persons perspective too.

FACTS vs OPINIONS and third party hearsay

And lastly, just to correct an opinion with a fact. This is not a "Pips dominated forum".

FACT 1: There are at least 28 categories of discussion on this forum - "alternative equipment" are only 4 of them

FACT 2: The Categories which have the most topics posted on them are
- General 3219
- Equipment (all) 3159
- Long Pimples 2424
- Inverted 2311
- Blades 2311
- Table tennis videos 1989

FACT 3: The most popular thread ever on this forum was a blog by MNNB

FACT 4: This forum is one of the few that has a section dedicated to ITTF and Table Tennis Associations and had one of the most informative and controversial topic threads ever which was hosted by Adham Shahara who was constantly challenged.

Eventually Adham chose option 5 and left. This topic divided many forum members down the middle, caused many disputes, much bad blood but was also one of the most informative and challenging reads I've ever come across in any table tennis forum anywhere in the world. But Torsten Kuenett still remains and is kind enough to answer questions on another very controversial topic and although his answers are not always liked, his presence is appreciated.

FACT 5: When a survey was carried out of the type of equipment used by members of this forum in 2009 - a time when this forum was developing and was considered to be a "pimple forum" - 91% of members used inverted rubber on at least one side of their bat.


And for those who think a survey in 2009 has no relevance:

FACT: As of today, the latest 50 active topics have been

Table tennis other topics General 11
Blades 8
Inverted rubbers 6
Long pimple rubbers 3
Equipment (all) 3
Buy and Sell 3
Table Tennis Blogs 3
Short Pimple rubbers 2
Videos – Pimples / Antispin 2
Forum member videos 1
Forum suggestions 1
Announcements 1
ITTF watch 1
TT Techniques and strategies 1
TT robots 1
OOAK lounge 1
Table Tennis Balls 1
Anti Spin rubbers 1


Conclusion:
FACT:
This is not a “a pips etc forum”. OOAK forum is “A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!”

OPINION:
This is the forum I spend most of my time on. It's also a forum where I've had the most upset, been the most frustrated and disappointed. However, it's also a place where I've had some excellent feedback and helpful encouragement. It's a place where I've made some of my best table tennis friends. It's a place where I've learned a lot, given a little back and enjoy visiting. It's OOAK. It is what you choose to make of it.

Decide for yourself.



All that because you asked me what level I was? I already told and indicated I knew how pips worked. And my experience,...simple really, but thanks for spending that time explaining basically that you didn't believe me and had to go to this extreme.wow!! A bit excessive.wow are pips really that complex really!!
Anyway this is what I have just written to someone who I have been discussing this all with... As below


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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 02:55 
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Jimmy jammer wrote:
Debater wrote:
I'm a UKCC Level 1 table tennis coach (the lowest level of officially recognised coaching standard in the UK). I can help at coaching sessions but I can't lead one on my own. Why, because I'm not considered technically qualified to do so (technically refers to generic coaching skills as well as actual technique). I seldom offer advice on threads and topic relating to coaching on this forum. Why?

1. It's not worth the hassle. Someone always has a different opinion they believe is right.
2. Being a qualified coach, I know enough to know that I don't know enough to offer advice in a forum environment.

Does that mean that others don't or shouldn't post on these types of topics?
No. Everyone has the right to offer an opinion.

Does it mean that anyone who posts on these types of topics should be believed and not challenged?
No. Everyone has the right to expect that they are receiving sound advice, advice that won't hinder their development (and often in coaching you're taught that you should only try and change a technique if the way that someone is doing something isn't working, or could be done better - textbook technique is not always the most appropriate way for everyone to play the game).

What's the relevance of this post? Simple.

- If you post on this forum, there is a good chance that you will be challenged about your opinions.
- If you post on this forum, you need to accept that other people will have different opinions to you.
- If you post on this forum, you have a responsibility to other posters not to mislead them. Helpful advice and opinions, can do more harm than good.

Who and how do you decide what's good?

If someone is new to a forum, how do you know whether the advice they give is good or bad? There is a theory about teams and the stages it goes through before it performs well - storming, forming, norming, performing. Any new poster is likely to go through all these stages on this forum - which in many ways is a team. It would be great to jump straight to "performing" but it won't happen because those earlier "unpleasant" stages are needed so that boundaries can be drawn and perceptions about the qualities people bring to a team can be assessed. It happens.

My experience

I didn't post on this forum for some time. There have been occasions when I've been torn in to after asking a question and the moderators have stepped in. There have been times when I've had my wrists slapped for being "unfair" to forum members - sometimes by moderators, other times by people who have sent me PM (personal message).

What ever the outcome, I need to build up a level of trust about the person posting - and that level of trust doesn't mean believe only those who believe the same as me. Nor does it mean repeating my comments continually until I wear someone down and they give up. Nor does it mean having to put up with what I consider to be childish school ground behaviour and name calling.

When I read comments about being challenged about "standard of play" I ask myself two simple questions to determine if it's a fair challenge - and I believe any opinion has a right to be given and a right to be challenged - and then a third, much harder one

1. If Ma Lin, William Henzell, Paul Drinkhall or Timo Boll had posted that comment and everyone knew it was them, would I react any differently to it.

and then I ask a second more subjective comment

2. Is that the type of comment I would expect someone with their table tennis experience and knowledge would make

and finally a much harder and even more subjective question

3. If that comment is left unchallenged, does it risk doing damage to this forum or it's members

And it's my answer to the third question why I'm posting now.

I started two threads in the past about "helpful posts"

Do you find equipment review "threads" helpful or confusing:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7012&hilit=+trust

What makes a good review:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27892&hilit=+trust

In both of those threads common denominators were "benchmarks" (check out the topics if you want to know who said what below)

- "knowing the standard of the player is a must."
- "An honest description of the tester's level and style also helps"
- "Of course, a good player may not necessarily give an accurate review."

and crucially this opinion was expressed
- "I am not going to stop anyone to offer their opinions on the equipment, technique etc. Just give me some idea about your level and play style so that I can evaluate it in context."

It's one of the reasons members of this forum spent some time coming up with a review template and asked reviewers to use it - it's on this forum if you search for it.

What's this got to do with this topic?

Forum members here will not take what you say at face value. You will be challenged if you post here. People will express a difference of opinon. In my case, posting although frightening at first has given me a lot more confidence and helped increase my social skills.

Not everyone will agree with everyone else and not everyone will agree when it's inappropriate. I know for a fact there have been discussion behind the scenes on this forum a number of times in the past when moderators have had different opinions on how and when to get involved in what for someone is a dispute and for someone else a discussion.

And importantly, sometimes you just need to agree to disagree and move on. Shouting, repeating arguments trying to wear people down won't work - people aren't stupid. They'll stop posting and they'll stop reading those posts.

Suggestion:

1. Before joining, consider reading this topic:
Forum Goals, Rules and Guidelines - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7074

2. If you feel you are being treated unfairly on the forum - even if it's by another moderator, consider reading this topic
Dial a Moderator - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4026&hilit=moderator

3. If you still not happy with the behaviour of a forum member or they generally annoy you, you can either
- remove their posts from threads so that "you" don't have to read them anymore - use the "friends or foe" options within your user control panel (you have to be a member to do this) faq.php#f6r1 and search for friend or foe
or
- ignore them and not post

4. If you're not happy with how you are being treated, apply to be a moderator and change the forum from within

5. If you still aren't happy, you have the right to leave the forum

Everyone has the right to choose to post or not. Everyone has the right to be treated with respect and it helps if you can look from another persons perspective too.

FACTS vs OPINIONS and third party hearsay

And lastly, just to correct an opinion with a fact. This is not a "Pips dominated forum".

FACT 1: There are at least 28 categories of discussion on this forum - "alternative equipment" are only 4 of them

FACT 2: The Categories which have the most topics posted on them are
- General 3219
- Equipment (all) 3159
- Long Pimples 2424
- Inverted 2311
- Blades 2311
- Table tennis videos 1989

FACT 3: The most popular thread ever on this forum was a blog by MNNB

FACT 4: This forum is one of the few that has a section dedicated to ITTF and Table Tennis Associations and had one of the most informative and controversial topic threads ever which was hosted by Adham Shahara who was constantly challenged.

Eventually Adham chose option 5 and left. This topic divided many forum members down the middle, caused many disputes, much bad blood but was also one of the most informative and challenging reads I've ever come across in any table tennis forum anywhere in the world. But Torsten Kuenett still remains and is kind enough to answer questions on another very controversial topic and although his answers are not always liked, his presence is appreciated.

FACT 5: When a survey was carried out of the type of equipment used by members of this forum in 2009 - a time when this forum was developing and was considered to be a "pimple forum" - 91% of members used inverted rubber on at least one side of their bat.


And for those who think a survey in 2009 has no relevance:

FACT: As of today, the latest 50 active topics have been

Table tennis other topics General 11
Blades 8
Inverted rubbers 6
Long pimple rubbers 3
Equipment (all) 3
Buy and Sell 3
Table Tennis Blogs 3
Short Pimple rubbers 2
Videos – Pimples / Antispin 2
Forum member videos 1
Forum suggestions 1
Announcements 1
ITTF watch 1
TT Techniques and strategies 1
TT robots 1
OOAK lounge 1
Table Tennis Balls 1
Anti Spin rubbers 1


Conclusion:
FACT:
This is not a “a pips etc forum”. OOAK forum is “A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!”

OPINION:
This is the forum I spend most of my time on. It's also a forum where I've had the most upset, been the most frustrated and disappointed. However, it's also a place where I've had some excellent feedback and helpful encouragement. It's a place where I've made some of my best table tennis friends. It's a place where I've learned a lot, given a little back and enjoy visiting. It's OOAK. It is what you choose to make of it.

Decide for yourself.



All that because you asked me what level I was? I already told and indicated I knew how pips worked. And my experience,...simple really, but thanks for spending that time explaining basically that you didn't believe me and had to go to this extreme.wow!! A bit excessive.wow are pips really that complex really!!
Anyway this is what I have just written to someone who I have been discussing this all with... As below


Lol the funny thing is it's not boiling in my head..I don't really want to keep going over what I have already said in that thread either.i can understand if inverted and short version pimps were legal because they were the first two but why the hell long pips were ever allowed was a step too far.,the federation made them legal and most likely might regret that decision now.yes I agree it's within the rules of engagement but I know for a fact that pips are turning young people off who are starting to play table tennis..like I said I'm sure the federation regrets what they have allowed also because there is not a matching pips rubber type of thing in any other sport that doesn't mirror the action that's played..sure pips rubber users have skill but a lot of it is via the rubber.anyway like I said I'm not going to go back into all the things I said already..if I have have to use pips rubber for whatever reason I won't have a problem saying that either but it's with the rules of engagement so blame the federation lol..


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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 03:12 
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NextLevel wrote:
Debater,

Great post but you are wasting a lot of ink on a seasoned troll. His MO is very calculated as is his choice of threads. Just let him be. His shelf life is limited.

As for the main topic, I post way too much...



Ahhh yes gee I think that post is written for everybody my friend including all the rude people who comment on here.Even the ones who don't know me but offer their somewhat limited input trying a feeble attempt at a put down ,yes admittedly on a touchy subject for some but why would we expect maturity from some people who have to resort to this type of thing....which only goes to show what you can expect if you post something that's really not that complex but some people won't agree with...expect this sort of immature behaviour from some people.. I've only posted on two threads and this particular guy feels threatened omg lol..give it a rest and grow up.


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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 03:25 
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Jimmy jammer wrote:
All that because you asked me what level I was? I already told and indicated I knew how pips worked. And my experience,...simple really, but thanks for spending that time explaining basically that you didn't believe me and had to go to this extreme.wow!! A bit excessive.wow are pips really that complex really!!
Anyway this is what I have just written to someone who I have been discussing this all with... As below


Do you make it a habit of misrepresenting what people post to suit your own needs so that you can make up your own conversation and support your own points. Please don't do that with me.

1. At no point did I say that "I" wanted to know your level of experience.
2. At no point have I commented on whether I think long pimples should be legal or not.

I posted because, if you read my post you'd know this already, you have made comments that if left unchallenged, risk doing damage to this forum or it's members", namely your comment that this was a pips dominated forum. It's not. Fact.

However, if you wish to continue to pick, choose and misrepresent what you want to talk about, add sarcasm in your posts, make childish digs and play the poor little victim feel free. As an adult I find that boring. Your posts send out a far better message about your sentiments and quality of argument than I could ever manage to do.

Thank you for demonstrating why people choose not to post on this forum.

I now choose option 3.

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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 03:46 
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Debater wrote:
Jimmy jammer wrote:
All that because you asked me what level I was? I already told and indicated I knew how pips worked. And my experience,...simple really, but thanks for spending that time explaining basically that you didn't believe me and had to go to this extreme.wow!! A bit excessive.wow are pips really that complex really!!
Anyway this is what I have just written to someone who I have been discussing this all with... As below


Do you make it a habit of misrepresenting what people post to suit your own needs so that you can make up your own conversation and support your own points. Please don't do that with me.

1. At no point did I say that "I" wanted to know your level of experience.
2. At no point have I commented on whether I think long pimples should be legal or not.

I posted because, if you read my post you'd know this already, you have made comments that if left unchallenged, risk doing damage to this forum or it's members", namely your comment that this was a pips dominated forum. It's not. Fact.

However, if you wish to continue to pick, choose and misrepresent what you want to talk about, add sarcasm in your posts, make childish digs and play the poor little victim feel free. As an adult I find that boring. Your posts send out a far better message about your sentiments and quality of argument than I could ever manage to do.

Thank you for demonstrating why people choose not to post on this forum.

I now choose option 3.


I said it was a pips forum because I was told it was by a responder.i never said any thing about you saying they were legal or not..i didn't misrepresent what you said. You said a lot that wasn't relevant to what I was talking about. You also were not only talking to me when you gave your general rules for chatting..you asked me about my tournament record did you not? You asked me about my ranking. You asked me for evidence.. So I'm not misrepresenting anything.


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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 03:51 
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Jimmy jammer wrote:
Debater wrote:
Jimmy jammer wrote:
All that because you asked me what level I was? I already told and indicated I knew how pips worked. And my experience,...simple really, but thanks for spending that time explaining basically that you didn't believe me and had to go to this extreme.wow!! A bit excessive.wow are pips really that complex really!!
Anyway this is what I have just written to someone who I have been discussing this all with... As below


Do you make it a habit of misrepresenting what people post to suit your own needs so that you can make up your own conversation and support your own points. Please don't do that with me.

1. At no point did I say that "I" wanted to know your level of experience.
2. At no point have I commented on whether I think long pimples should be legal or not.

I posted because, if you read my post you'd know this already, you have made comments that if left unchallenged, risk doing damage to this forum or it's members", namely your comment that this was a pips dominated forum. It's not. Fact.

However, if you wish to continue to pick, choose and misrepresent what you want to talk about, add sarcasm in your posts, make childish digs and play the poor little victim feel free. As an adult I find that boring. Your posts send out a far better message about your sentiments and quality of argument than I could ever manage to do.

Thank you for demonstrating why people choose not to post on this forum.

I now choose option 3.


I said it was a pips forum because I was told it was by a responder.i never said any thing about you saying they were legal or not..i didn't misrepresent what you said. You said a lot that wasn't relevant to what I was talking about. You also were not only talking to me when you gave your general rules for chatting..you asked me about my tournament record did you not? You asked me about my ranking. You asked me for evidence.. So I'm not misrepresenting anything.


Anyway this in a nutshell was what my thread was about

Lol the funny thing is it's not boiling in my head..I don't really want to keep going over what I have already said in that thread either.i can understand if inverted and short version pimps were legal because they were the first two but why the hell long pips were ever allowed was a step too far.,the federation made them legal and most likely might regret that decision now.yes I agree it's within the rules of engagement but I know for a fact that pips are turning young people off who are starting to play table tennis..like I said I'm sure the federation regrets what they have allowed also because there is not a matching pips rubber type of thing in any other sport that doesn't mirror the action that's played..sure pips rubber users have skill but a lot of it is via the rubber.anyway like I said I'm not going to go back into all the things I said already..if I have have to use pips rubber for whatever reason I won't have a problem saying that either but it's with the rules of engagement so blame the federation lol..


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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 04:47 
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Something enduring about this thread.

On one side we have a scumbag troll and on the other we have really nice and thoughtful people.

NL does post too much but it seems to me the post count has gone down dramatically in recent weeks.


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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 06:07 
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JJ and these last few portions of the thread have CTR-ALT-DEL written all over it.

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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 06:50 
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wilkinru wrote:
Something enduring about this thread.

On one side we have a scumbag troll and on the other we have really nice and thoughtful people.

NL does post too much but it seems to me the post count has gone down dramatically in recent weeks.


Yes. I tend to run to where the trolls are not. Most of my activity these days is on TTD then here and then mytt. In part because the TTEdge guys I used to advise haven't posted as much and I myself have been going through a bit of work and other stuff. The good thing about TTD is that we have a clique of posters there that keeps the trolls in check. And the trolls there pretty much identify themselves as such, making them much more fun to interact with. They don't pretend to have any facts and just want to ruin your temperament.

DerEchte is there, he knows how we roll.

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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 08:37 
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Jimmy jammer wrote:
I don't really want to keep going over what I have already said in that thread either.


Look. When a moderator locks a thread, one in which you've amply said your piece and had the last word over everyone you've argued with, it is respectful, common sense and mature not to keep it going in another unrelated thread that you think the moderator is less likely to lock.

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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 10:03 
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hangdog wrote:
Quote:
Look. When a moderator locks a thread, one in which you've amply said your piece and had the last word over everyone you've argued with, it is respectful, common sense and mature not to keep it going in another unrelated thread that you think the moderator is less likely to lock.


Agreed. This thread is supposed to be about advice to posters who don't post very much. Debater has made a very relevant post which very much fits this topic, which JJ has misinterpreted (polite word for it) as being a rebuttal to JJ's complaint about his issues with pimples etc not being taken seriously and that we are all pimples users. JJ has then made a post which would have fitted the locked thread almost exactly in an attempt to hijack this topic back to his original thread which was locked. I think that a word has been bandied about both here and in the other thread that may describe this behaviour. I think it may fit.

If JJ had read Debaters post in the spirit in which most others here took it, and followed the in-forum links and taken it on board then things may have turned out differently.

I live in hope that rational discourse will resume presently. However, I am not holding my metaphorical breath.

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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 10:26 
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Secret Agent Double OX
Secret Agent Double OX
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The forum has rules against trolling. Specifically OOAK Rules F.3 and F.4.

Quote:
3. "Trolling". Do not post in order to anger other members or intentionally cause negative reactions. For a given post, this can be a subjective call, but a pattern of such posting or an especially egregious case will get you banned. Basically, don't try to pick fights. Knowingly posting false information is also prohibited.

4. Any ongoing actions that make more work for the moderators and administrators or regularly annoy other members and require moderator action. If banning you is easier than dealing with the problems you are causing on a continuous basis, you may be banned.


A ban was warranted and implemented.

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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 18:04 
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Roar Talent
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So much action here :lol: :lol:

I forgot my password, then I forgot my email to retrieve my forum password. I have many password, including password at work.

Finally, I got it correctly. I miss communicating with you guys. I think I have been out for more than a year. But still continuously playing. Skill level still improving bit by bit.

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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 19:56 
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Dark Knight
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Welcome back Red_lion :up: :up: :up:

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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2017, 06:12 
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Well, JJ was an absolute ***
I do not regret saying that. Dear God, that troll!

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