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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2016, 03:15 
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Musicfreak0 wrote:
Jimmy jammer wrote:
After starting a thread in here and being subjected to ridicule,personal attacks and illogical people that can't deal with a logical debate it's no wonder that people don't post on this site...so unless you play with pips etc (because I'm told this is a pips etc forum)and are a champion player like Zhang
Jike don't bother to post if you have a different opinion to the few that are buddies on this site that still Pat each other on the back and will resort to any tactics and say anything to you to slag you..so unless your rated at zhangs level give it a miss especially if you don't agree with the moderators who actually some also endorse illegal tampering of pips as witnessed by a few others that posted here who now have left this site in disgust.. That's why people don't post.


Firstly, Jimmy jammer, I would like to welcome you to the forum! Debater, I'll try and keep this post on topic, and not let it stray away - sorry if I do stray off-topic. :)

I've read over that thread a few times, and had some thoughts about it, but I don't believe I actually posted on it. My opinions may be biased because I'm an anti-player, but I used to play inverted, and I'll try and keep my views here neutral for this conversation.

As Retriever said in your thread, there are double inverted players on this forum, and even as an anti-player, I have found some of these members some of the most helpful (Retriever is one of them). Almost all pimple/anti players have an inverted rubber on the other side, and once you reach a certain level, the pips are not used as a crutch like they are in low-level players. Even I'm above that - and I'm not that good, especially compared with most of the members on this forum! Please don't feel that you are being targeted; it is just the way your thread came across as a rant about pips that caused that thread to turn out as it did. Perhaps it was your unfamiliarity with this forum and the way that it works, but it seems that regularly posting 4 or 5 posts in a row on one thread could (and was) [mis]interpreted by some as poor forum etiquette, and trolling/spamming.

Now personally, I love playing against pimples, as I believe the best way to understand how a playstyle works is to try it. I've dabbled with the penhold, and retrieving, blocking, chopping, looping - almost everything. Even just playing around with styles having a casual hit allows you to find the strengths and weaknesses of a certain style. I believe that pips allow for great versatility in table tennis, and are no different to the change to inverted rubbers, from the first sponge bat back in the '50s. It is just some people find that playing with the older styles work better for them. I guarantee that if you play someone level exactly your with pimples, that they would beat you easily if you swapped bats; particularly if you can't twiddle. It is just that there are different strokes between rubbers - pimple players use the inverted strokes frequently, while it is possible that you've never played an anti/pimple stroke before - one is not better than the other, they are just different.

Believe it or not, it's a fact that pimple players are the minority, and have been discriminated against (frictionless ban), and you double-inverted players are the majority - just not on this forum. That being said, I'm not saying you should like pimples, I'm just saying there should be no prejudice. If you understand pimples, but don't like playing against them, then there's no problem; it's just accepting them as part of the game. If you think they should be banned because you haven't researched them and have maed no effort to understand why people use them, then there's a problem - if you make an effort to see the other side of the argument and stick to your opinion, then that's fair - we will all respect your opinion.

So, again, welcome Jimmy jammer, I hope you can find a place on this forum where you feel you fit in. Writing can always be misinterpreted - that's one of the problems with the internet - but if you take the time to consider what you say in a way where it won't come across the wrong way, then I'm sure there won't be any problems. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the forum and have some more good discussions! :)


Thanks for your effort in composing that but what was talked about in that thread was much more than simply banning pips etc.. I frequently understood what was being said and was polite it's just some people chose to be rude. I understand how pips etc work but I'm not going to go back over everything..if you did read the post I have made several suggestions why people use them , I think maybe you have misunderstood and that's fine.. I mentioned twiddling etc and skills ,so please feel free to retread that whole post and you will see what I mean.. So,I stand by what I said above originally under the circumstances and have added further comments to it below because I'm annoyed at how I was treated and still being treated .this is my response to someone about what at times seemed a bit one sided with little logic just abuse..a little bit too one way street for me

Hey mate I don't know if you have actually read all my thread and going by what you just said it's obvious that you haven't .. I was respectful to people and polite and I even got told off for being respectful and polite by one person. Lol ...it's a two way street but a few of the respondents chose to be disrespectful to me,but I would expect you to side with your friends on this way one street regarding abuse. A lot of the comments back from people to me were rude and derogatory ..So what would you expect that someone should do then just let people slag you off and say nothing ... ? So you advise me to be different, what then are you saying I shouldn't be polite then?

Also I was told that this forum was a pips forum by one of your respondents. That's a fact read the posts..he created that image not me.

I don't really care if I stay on this forum or not because it seems to me exactly like I said in those comments I wrote.. Read the entire thread and You will know what I'm talking about.also i was told that some moderators approve of tampering with pips etc and this person who complained on here intelligently about it left this site in disgust after he was abused.

The last guy that went onto my forum thread indicated that unless I was a certain level that I had no credibility.. That's also why I wrote about being the level of jike to get credibility .. That's how it looked to me.. Your respondent created that image not me mate... That's why people won't post


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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2016, 07:50 
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Anyone who has read the forum regularly over then last 4 or 5 years has a pretty good foundation to know the forum and the character of many of its members. Such a person can well ascertain what it takes for ten+ if the members in the thread including a longtime forum operator to be turned off to the degree shown.

Anyone with a fraction of knowledge of this forum can make a sound determination.

Goon Squads and Brooklyn Bridge antics/fun look like they are right around the corner.

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2016, 07:52 
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JJ is gonna put Hassisv in a hard spot if his trend line continues in the same direction.

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2016, 09:37 
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Fair enough, Jimmy.
All the same, there were people saying to back off for those few who did misinterpret your posts, and there were numerous calls to stop the negative response you were given. Firstly, I can't say I know the people well enough to make a judgement like that - I've never met them, and I've only been on the forum a few months, as you can see - so sorry for being biased. Like I said at the start of my previous post, I'm trying not to be biased - just saying things as I see them.

In reference to politeness, there is a balance between being blunt, and being so subtly "kind" that your point gets missed altogether; which is when we start seeing a mix of responses like we did. In regards to the pips treating, I would wager that more double inverted players boost and/or use VOCs than pips player treat their pips (and I'm talking percentages of players, not total number).
Regarding the "pips forum", the idea of one is not necessarily that of the entire forum. Be that as it may, I can see how double-inverted players would lose interest quickly due to the amount of pip-related discussions, so I understand how that view could be adopted, especially after being told so. Also, which member are you referring to that left?
Lastly, don't feel that you have to be of a certain level to be of value to this forum - I feel like I add some valuable discussions, but I'm sure almost every regular member here could beat me comfortably.

Anyway, I understand your opinion, and it is clear that you feel very strongly about your opinions, and if you go the right way about it, then you will become a great member of this forum. However, if you go completely the wrong way about it, it could get you banned - something that I don't personally want to see, because you raise some very valid and interesting points.

A general statement, not directed towards anyone: If you're not sure about whether to post: don't. Then you can consider the outcomes, and if you then think you can word it so it doesn't incite an argument; instead, a friendly debate, then by all means post!

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2016, 13:12 
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JJ,

Did you read the forum prior to posting the OP of the thread that got locked? This is key to gauging how you express your thoughts and opinions in a particular forum because every forum is different.

Either way, can you now see why the posters responding either:
that the OP was a troll (controversial post designed to inflame)?
by arguing that pimples out & anti spin are legitimate choices, but can be used as a crutch at the lower levels?

My posts in that thread were attempting to belittle or counter the OP, but not the person behind the OP.

Some people, myself included, take criticism of their work or output personally.

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2016, 15:17 
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Retriever wrote:
Some people, myself included, take criticism of their work or output personally.

That's the way many people work - and that's fair enough. If you came to me in person and completely criticised all of my work (whether that's table tennis, How Spin Works, my music, or whatever), then I'd likely take it to heart. However, when I'm on this forum and the internet in general, I just ignore negative feedback (unless there are genuinely things I could improve on). But for example, JJ, if you were to have a rant about how opinionated I am being and how I have no idea what I'm talking about, I would take a moment to consider whether I should change my behaviour, and if the problem is not with me, then I simply ignore it. I don't know you personally, so I have no reason to think any other way about you, and I would just pass it off. I wouldn't really care - but I do take care to try and make my posts helpful and relevant, and if my posts have no value whatsoever, then I try to change them so they do. People like Retriever and most, if not all, members of this forum would likely agree that the reason they take the criticism personally because they are trying to be helpful, and it is not fair that they should get their heads bitten off for trying to help. Also, it can be hard to tell whether someone is directing their comments towards a post, or a poster, but that's one of the weaknesses of the way the internet works, so we just have to be careful when writing and reading. :angel:

More generally, a call to any new members to highlight what we are learning: feel free to ask any questions, just think about whether it is a personal question, a debate, or something that has been discussed time and time again, and is just going to start fights. We try to be a friendly community, and the more interesting discussions we have (rather than fights), the better.

That being said, I feel I have contributed to this thread going completely off-topic, despite my attempts to keep it on track in my posts. Perhaps a change of subject is in order?

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2016, 20:18 
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Musicfreak0 wrote:
Retriever wrote:
Some people, myself included, take criticism of their work or output personally.

That's the way many people work - and that's fair enough. If you came to me in person and completely criticised all of my work (whether that's table tennis, How Spin Works, my music, or whatever), then I'd likely take it to heart. However, when I'm on this forum and the internet in general, I just ignore negative feedback (unless there are genuinely things I could improve on). But for example, JJ, if you were to have a rant about how opinionated I am being and how I have no idea what I'm talking about, I would take a moment to consider whether I should change my behaviour, and if the problem is not with me, then I simply ignore it. I don't know you personally, so I have no reason to think any other way about you, and I would just pass it off. I wouldn't really care - but I do take care to try and make my posts helpful and relevant, and if my posts have no value whatsoever, then I try to change them so they do. People like Retriever and most, if not all, members of this forum would likely agree that the reason they take the criticism personally because they are trying to be helpful, and it is not fair that they should get their heads bitten off for trying to help. Also, it can be hard to tell whether someone is directing their comments towards a post, or a poster, but that's one of the weaknesses of the way the internet works, so we just have to be careful when writing and reading. :angel:

More generally, a call to any new members to highlight what we are learning: feel free to ask any questions, just think about whether it is a personal question, a debate, or something that has been discussed time and time again, and is just going to start fights. We try to be a friendly community, and the more interesting discussions we have (rather than fights), the better.

That being said, I feel I have contributed to this thread going completely off-topic, despite my attempts to keep it on track in my posts. Perhaps a change of subject is in order?



Thanks music freak for your effort again..I understand how people work that's why I was polite to people until the personal attacks came because I figure that's the only way some people could deal with my answers and logic..they didn't have to but they did.. I didn't bite anybody's head off but some people took several bites at mine as they resorted to these type of tactics to make me look silly which I am not at all.. I'm not going to go back over what I said and what was talked about read the thread... It covers a lot..if I felt other people had valid points I certainly agreed with them.. Look I was even told off for being polite and backing up my statements with more statements...wth and smh... What a joke.
Anyway this is what was further written to somebody about this whole thing.

Yes a bit more reasonable from you at last. So then why didn't you pipe in and say yes you agreed with parts of what I'm saying and say you went to pips for a health reason because that was one reason I gave for people using pips. I'm guessing that was because you didn't want to give me any credibility. I'm not stupid mate Im not a idiot.. People chose to be rude to me...also that last guy who commented certainly indicated that my comments ...well indicating all my comments ( even thought I can tell he didn't read them) were a put down because I'm not sensible enough because I'm not at his level or higher that is just arrogant and soooo wrong...


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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2016, 07:16 
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JJ wrote:
Quote:
Yes a bit more reasonable from you at last. So then why didn't you pipe in and say yes you agreed with parts of what I'm saying and say you went to pips for a health reason because that was one reason I gave for people using pips. I'm guessing that was because you didn't want to give me any credibility. I'm not stupid mate Im not a idiot.. People chose to be rude to me...also that last guy who commented certainly indicated that my comments ...well indicating all my comments ( even thought I can tell he didn't read them) were a put down because I'm not sensible enough because I'm not at his level or higher that is just arrogant and soooo wrong...


It is unclear whether you are referring to Retriever or Musicfreak0 in the first part of this.

For the record, Retriever has never used pimples out apart from the odd hit.

I can't speak for NL, but people's perceptions can depend on their level, and we have had nothing to indicate that for JJ.

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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2016, 07:44 
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Retriever wrote:
It is unclear whether you are referring to Retriever or Musicfreak0 in the first part of this.
For the record, Retriever has never used pimples out apart from the odd hit.


I'm not sure if JJ was talking to either of us, Retriever! He did write this above it:
JJ wrote:
Anyway this is what was further written to somebody about this whole thing.


That being said, I don't use antispin for a health reason, nor due to old age (not yet anyway): hopefully that's a while away for me!
I just use it because I get bored with double inverted: the variety of shots and serves is practically doubled!

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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2016, 13:22 
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Retriever wrote:
JJ wrote:
Quote:
Yes a bit more reasonable from you at last. So then why didn't you pipe in and say yes you agreed with parts of what I'm saying and say you went to pips for a health reason because that was one reason I gave for people using pips. I'm guessing that was because you didn't want to give me any credibility. I'm not stupid mate Im not a idiot.. People chose to be rude to me...also that last guy who commented certainly indicated that my comments ...well indicating all my comments ( even thought I can tell he didn't read them) were a put down because I'm not sensible enough because I'm not at his level or higher that is just arrogant and soooo wrong...


It is unclear whether you are referring to Retriever or Musicfreak0 in the first part of this.

For the record, Retriever has never used pimples out apart from the odd hit.

I can't speak for NL, but people's perceptions can depend on their level, and we have had nothing to indicate that for JJ.



Please don't push your luck with the level conversation might be best to just leave it..because like I said the last guy that spoke certainly indicated that my comments ...well indicating all my comments ( even though I can tell he didn't read them) were a put down because apparently I'm not sensible enough to understand how pips work or even have a right to make any comments because I'm not at his level or higher that is just arrogant and soooo wrong stands this is exactly what he meant in this case.. Nobody else was asked to indicate their level and I explained mine .. So like I said this is perhaps why people don't comment on this forum as one possibility.


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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2016, 18:34 
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I'm a UKCC Level 1 table tennis coach (the lowest level of officially recognised coaching standard in the UK). I can help at coaching sessions but I can't lead one on my own. Why, because I'm not considered technically qualified to do so (technically refers to generic coaching skills as well as actual technique). I seldom offer advice on threads and topic relating to coaching on this forum. Why?

1. It's not worth the hassle. Someone always has a different opinion they believe is right.
2. Being a qualified coach, I know enough to know that I don't know enough to offer advice in a forum environment.

Does that mean that others don't or shouldn't post on these types of topics?
No. Everyone has the right to offer an opinion.

Does it mean that anyone who posts on these types of topics should be believed and not challenged?
No. Everyone has the right to expect that they are receiving sound advice, advice that won't hinder their development (and often in coaching you're taught that you should only try and change a technique if the way that someone is doing something isn't working, or could be done better - textbook technique is not always the most appropriate way for everyone to play the game).

What's the relevance of this post? Simple.

- If you post on this forum, there is a good chance that you will be challenged about your opinions.
- If you post on this forum, you need to accept that other people will have different opinions to you.
- If you post on this forum, you have a responsibility to other posters not to mislead them. Helpful advice and opinions, can do more harm than good.

Who and how do you decide what's good?

If someone is new to a forum, how do you know whether the advice they give is good or bad? There is a theory about teams and the stages it goes through before it performs well - storming, forming, norming, performing. Any new poster is likely to go through all these stages on this forum - which in many ways is a team. It would be great to jump straight to "performing" but it won't happen because those earlier "unpleasant" stages are needed so that boundaries can be drawn and perceptions about the qualities people bring to a team can be assessed. It happens.

My experience

I didn't post on this forum for some time. There have been occasions when I've been torn in to after asking a question and the moderators have stepped in. There have been times when I've had my wrists slapped for being "unfair" to forum members - sometimes by moderators, other times by people who have sent me PM (personal message).

What ever the outcome, I need to build up a level of trust about the person posting - and that level of trust doesn't mean believe only those who believe the same as me. Nor does it mean repeating my comments continually until I wear someone down and they give up. Nor does it mean having to put up with what I consider to be childish school ground behaviour and name calling.

When I read comments about being challenged about "standard of play" I ask myself two simple questions to determine if it's a fair challenge - and I believe any opinion has a right to be given and a right to be challenged - and then a third, much harder one

1. If Ma Lin, William Henzell, Paul Drinkhall or Timo Boll had posted that comment and everyone knew it was them, would I react any differently to it.

and then I ask a second more subjective comment

2. Is that the type of comment I would expect someone with their table tennis experience and knowledge would make

and finally a much harder and even more subjective question

3. If that comment is left unchallenged, does it risk doing damage to this forum or it's members

And it's my answer to the third question why I'm posting now.

I started two threads in the past about "helpful posts"

Do you find equipment review "threads" helpful or confusing:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7012&hilit=+trust

What makes a good review:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27892&hilit=+trust

In both of those threads common denominators were "benchmarks" (check out the topics if you want to know who said what below)

- "knowing the standard of the player is a must."
- "An honest description of the tester's level and style also helps"
- "Of course, a good player may not necessarily give an accurate review."

and crucially this opinion was expressed
- "I am not going to stop anyone to offer their opinions on the equipment, technique etc. Just give me some idea about your level and play style so that I can evaluate it in context."

It's one of the reasons members of this forum spent some time coming up with a review template and asked reviewers to use it - it's on this forum if you search for it.

What's this got to do with this topic?

Forum members here will not take what you say at face value. You will be challenged if you post here. People will express a difference of opinon. In my case, posting although frightening at first has given me a lot more confidence and helped increase my social skills.

Not everyone will agree with everyone else and not everyone will agree when it's inappropriate. I know for a fact there have been discussion behind the scenes on this forum a number of times in the past when moderators have had different opinions on how and when to get involved in what for someone is a dispute and for someone else a discussion.

And importantly, sometimes you just need to agree to disagree and move on. Shouting, repeating arguments trying to wear people down won't work - people aren't stupid. They'll stop posting and they'll stop reading those posts.

Suggestion:

1. Before joining, consider reading this topic:
Forum Goals, Rules and Guidelines - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7074

2. If you feel you are being treated unfairly on the forum - even if it's by another moderator, consider reading this topic
Dial a Moderator - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4026&hilit=moderator

3. If you still not happy with the behaviour of a forum member or they generally annoy you, you can either
- remove their posts from threads so that "you" don't have to read them anymore - use the "friends or foe" options within your user control panel (you have to be a member to do this) faq.php#f6r1 and search for friend or foe
or
- ignore them and not post

4. If you're not happy with how you are being treated, apply to be a moderator and change the forum from within

5. If you still aren't happy, you have the right to leave the forum

Everyone has the right to choose to post or not. Everyone has the right to be treated with respect and it helps if you can look from another persons perspective too.

FACTS vs OPINIONS and third party hearsay

And lastly, just to correct an opinion with a fact. This is not a "Pips dominated forum".

FACT 1: There are at least 28 categories of discussion on this forum - "alternative equipment" are only 4 of them

FACT 2: The Categories which have the most topics posted on them are
- General 3219
- Equipment (all) 3159
- Long Pimples 2424
- Inverted 2311
- Blades 2311
- Table tennis videos 1989

FACT 3: The most popular thread ever on this forum was a blog by MNNB

FACT 4: This forum is one of the few that has a section dedicated to ITTF and Table Tennis Associations and had one of the most informative and controversial topic threads ever which was hosted by Adham Shahara who was constantly challenged.

Eventually Adham chose option 5 and left. This topic divided many forum members down the middle, caused many disputes, much bad blood but was also one of the most informative and challenging reads I've ever come across in any table tennis forum anywhere in the world. But Torsten Kuenett still remains and is kind enough to answer questions on another very controversial topic and although his answers are not always liked, his presence is appreciated.

FACT 5: When a survey was carried out of the type of equipment used by members of this forum in 2009 - a time when this forum was developing and was considered to be a "pimple forum" - 91% of members used inverted rubber on at least one side of their bat.


And for those who think a survey in 2009 has no relevance:

FACT: As of today, the latest 50 active topics have been

Table tennis other topics General 11
Blades 8
Inverted rubbers 6
Long pimple rubbers 3
Equipment (all) 3
Buy and Sell 3
Table Tennis Blogs 3
Short Pimple rubbers 2
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Conclusion:
FACT:
This is not a “a pips etc forum”. OOAK forum is “A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!”

OPINION:
This is the forum I spend most of my time on. It's also a forum where I've had the most upset, been the most frustrated and disappointed. However, it's also a place where I've had some excellent feedback and helpful encouragement. It's a place where I've made some of my best table tennis friends. It's a place where I've learned a lot, given a little back and enjoy visiting. It's OOAK. It is what you choose to make of it.

Decide for yourself.

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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2016, 21:07 
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One-Loop Man
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Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
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Debater,

Great post but you are wasting a lot of ink on a seasoned troll. His MO is very calculated as is his choice of threads. Just let him be. His shelf life is limited.

As for the main topic, I post way too much...

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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2016, 21:42 
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Ninja of the Holy Chtchet
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Joined: 28 Feb 2014, 13:38
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Here here! After a while, it was apparent after repeated olive branches that there was no real dialogue to be had.

So from here on, this thread an any other, we should not feed the beast. Even if (and when) he retorts to this post.

Let this be the end of it. :rock:

As for the OP of this thread, certainly feel free to responde. ;)

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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2016, 22:52 
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Secret Agent Double OX
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Great post debater!

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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2016, 02:43 
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NextLevel wrote:
Debater,

Great post but you are wasting a lot of ink on a seasoned troll. His MO is very calculated as is his choice of threads. Just let him be. His shelf life is limited.

As for the main topic, I post way too much...



Omg really? So mature


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