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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012, 23:49 
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Kees, how do you handle slow short loops that is not so spinny? And what should I do with slow high short spinny loops?
Thanks in advance.

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012, 06:28 
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wlhk
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Kees, how do you handle slow short loops that is not so spinny? And what should I do with slow high short spinny loops?
Thanks in advance

It depends completely on your equipment.
If your anti has virtually no grip on the ball, you can't produce any topspin either. Therefore you should either contact the ball on the rise, as then it will bounce up off your bat and clear the net; but doing this you cannot hit hard because the ball won't go down quickly as there is no topspin on it. Or (better) you hit it on the top of its trajectory with the face of your bat towards the point of the table you want the ball to go to and hit it flat. If the ball is bouncing high and you want or have to contact it before the top, you have to close your bat enough to compensate for the ball bouncing up off it, so you can't hit really flat, but have to compromise, doing a drive and follow through.
If your anti does have a bit of grip, you can produce topspin, so you can drive it the way you would with inverted, only with your bat less closed and always on the rise or on the top.
A slow high short spinny loop is rare, mostly they are half-long, but if you see one coming you have to come in close and hit it straight on the table as soon as it is high enough for that.
With slick anti, a half-long or long spinny loop can only be blocked or chopped. If you try to drive it, you will produce a floater (having backspin). With grippy anti you can drive it, but only if you have a straight shot over the net as your return will have virtually no spin; make certain to hit it somewhere very awkward for your opponent, for you cannot hit very hard.

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012, 08:32 
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Kees wrote:
Yesterday I bought the Joola Toni Hold Anti Topspin in black 1.5 mm, to use it on a Joola Toni Hold Whitespot blade, with Joola Topspin C red 1.8 mm on the forehand [...]
It is twice the price of the Ellen, but I think it is worth it. Tomorrow I'll know...


Very curious to hear about your experiences!
P.

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012, 16:44 
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Pipsy wrote:
Kees wrote:
Yesterday I bought the Joola Toni Hold Anti Topspin in black 1.5 mm, to use it on a Joola Toni Hold Whitespot blade, with Joola Topspin C red 1.8 mm on the forehand [...]
It is twice the price of the Ellen, but I think it is worth it. Tomorrow I'll know...


Very curious to hear about your experiences!
P.
I came down with bronchitis, so I have to wait a few weeks more :(

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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2012, 10:13 
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Kees wrote:
So perhaps your choice of anti is not ideal for your style of play.

I'm not ready to give up on the Nittaku Best Anti yet...I got some good practice against a robot yesterday and figured out the "hit" against underspin. In some practice games later I smacked some good winners against long underspin serves. But I also missed more than I made. There's little margin for error and if the bat angle is off or I don't finish the stroke it's either off the table or in the net.

I was digging through my box of old rubbers this morning and I found some Bty Super Anti 1.8 from several years ago that I had forgotten about. So I think I'm going to try that just to get a comparison. Perhaps playing close to the table will work better for me with the Super Anti as you suggested.

 

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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2012, 10:15 
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That old BTY anti should be better than a new one. ;)


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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2012, 13:22 
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Kees wrote:
wlhk
Quote:
Kees, how do you handle slow short loops that is not so spinny? And what should I do with slow high short spinny loops?
Thanks in advance

It depends completely on your equipment.
If your anti has virtually no grip on the ball, you can't produce any topspin either. Therefore you should either contact the ball on the rise, as then it will bounce up off your bat and clear the net; but doing this you cannot hit hard because the ball won't go down quickly as there is no topspin on it. Or (better) you hit it on the top of its trajectory with the face of your bat towards the point of the table you want the ball to go to and hit it flat. If the ball is bouncing high and you want or have to contact it before the top, you have to close your bat enough to compensate for the ball bouncing up off it, so you can't hit really flat, but have to compromise, doing a drive and follow through.
If your anti does have a bit of grip, you can produce topspin, so you can drive it the way you would with inverted, only with your bat less closed and always on the rise or on the top.
A slow high short spinny loop is rare, mostly they are half-long, but if you see one coming you have to come in close and hit it straight on the table as soon as it is high enough for that.
With slick anti, a half-long or long spinny loop can only be blocked or chopped. If you try to drive it, you will produce a floater (having backspin). With grippy anti you can drive it, but only if you have a straight shot over the net as your return will have virtually no spin; make certain to hit it somewhere very awkward for your opponent, for you cannot hit very hard.


Thanks, Kees.
FYI, I have just started using Antispin for a very short period. I am using Tibhar Ellen Def 2.0 for now. I find that Ellen is easier to use than Yasaka. I will persist with Ellen for now and hope to be able to perform more active strokes, rowing, hitting, blocking.... with the Ellen.

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 04:41 
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Played with the Bty Super Anti last night and it worked much better for me. Long underspin serves are now mine to kill! So I got fewer and fewer of those in each match after they caught on and started giving me long topspin. If they did that to the forehand I like to loop kill those too! So then it was either short serves or long topspin or nospin to the backhand. It is the latter that is hardest to return, but blocking off the bounce with the Super Anti causes a lot of the returns to go right into the net. The Nittaku was different in that sense because it mostly produces dead, nospin with very little reversal.

This sheet has 1.8 sponge compared to the Nittaku Best Anti which was 1.3. That's probably the difference concerning hitting which was much more consistent with the Bty. The Super Anti is also much less sensitive to spin when receiving serve in general with all the pros and cons of that. I'd say blocking topspin off the bounce was very slightly harder with the Bty than the Nittaku, but gave a lot more effective reversal.

Now dang it...this Bty Super Anti is black and I've been playing black as my forehand for a long time. So I had to find one of my very few red inverted rubbers in the rejection pile (CJ8000) and use that temporarily. (And a few times I twiddled incorrectly due to the color change.) The CJ8000 is a decent rubber, but I really like the Hammond Pro Beta so now I had to buy a new one in red and figure out how to explain THAT to my wife! "You need RED?! You have perfectly good Black ones!" :lol:

 

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 09:33 
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Kees wrote:

I came down with bronchitis, so I have to wait a few weeks more :(



Hope you get well soon, Kees! Spring is in the air, that could help ;-)

P.

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2012, 00:58 
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Today I played 4 matches (3 singles, 1 double) with the new blade. First thing that struck me was how much more sensitive the Joola Toni Hold antispin rubber is, not to incoming spin, but to your own strokes. You have to have the angles right, or things go awry. For instance, for the first time in over a year I had pop-ups when I pushed against backspin. The Ellen is much safer to play with, but less dangerous to the opponent as well. I lost the first two games (close) because of this. But by then I had it sorted out and play went up. As the JTH anti is rather gripless it is not very effective in dealing with low or no spin, so you have to make a good deal of spin yourself and load the rallies. Happily the Joola Topspin C is very spinny, both with chopping and with looping, and it can produce effective speed for counter-attacks as well. So when I changed to more active play (and attacked backspin with the anti) things were going quite well. Only problem was I got winded when rallies were long, and in the third single I lost a lot of mobility because I got so tired, but that was caused by being out of shape. I really liked the set-up.

Every anti has its peculiarities. The sponge of the JTH anti is rather hard compared to the sponge of the Ellen, so you cannot grip the ball unless you make it dig in. That means that chopping against slow balls you have to go really horizontally under the ball and come up a bit again in order to produce heavy backspin.
But the lack of grip also means you can return any serve by just pressing the anti against the ball holding the bat vertically. Placement is extraordinary accurate - so accurate that I put some balls out because I compensated for the effect they had, as I was/am used to the little bit of spin-sensitivity the Ellen has.
Hitting against topspin you have to be low in order to prevent making contact with the upper half of the ball - you have to hit its back. Being low is also a good idea when attacking backspin, "looping" it, which is very effective and pretty fast with this rubber.
None of my opponents today was a typical looper, so I can't say how the anti will do against heavy topspin, but my guess is it will be even better...

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2012, 18:59 
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I used to play TH for decades and had my greatest successes with it - though at a time when many opponents even in high ranks did not know hot to play anti at all. Meanwhile, and a couple of years older, I am happy to have an alternative by the same manufacturer that adds spin reversal to the safety provided by TH.

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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2012, 23:11 
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I switched back to using the Tibhar Ellen Def; I just can't make the Joola Toni Hold anti work for counter-attacks the way I want to, especially when hitting against no-spin or top-spin. Removing it I damaged the sponge irreparably; it is very tender, apparently, to my amazement really as it has such a hard (and tough) feel.

I am inclined to conclude from my experience with antis so far that for allround defensive play (including attacks against topspin) you need a really soft sponge or a soft topsheet or both, or else there will be no effective grip, which is required to make your game at least partly independent from incoming spin. Actually, it is the same with LP (which needs soft sponge or grippy pips or both). Somewhere on the forum I read Pavel Solja's answers to questions, remarking that anti is inferior to LP in allround defense styles since it isn't possible to vary spin (enough) with anti. I disagree; there are several anti's which allow you to do that and the Ellen is one of them (so is the Juic Neoanti) - but the Joola Toni Hold anti isn't, or is at least not good enough for it. It blocks well, chops well, offers some variation, and is very difficult to use consistently for countering; so, a good defensive rubber, but that's all.

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PostPosted: 28 Mar 2012, 03:04 
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Have you tried the Timeless yet? I cannot attack with bh at all, so I can't argue about that property. However, all the other properties you mentioned are found in this rubber including the ability to produce some spin on your own. Furthermore, you get spin reversal as icing on the cake. For practicing (never in competition, I confess), to help partners develop their offensive play, I often play long defense, finding the TL very appropriate for that style, too.

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PostPosted: 28 Mar 2012, 03:18 
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It is outside of my budget...

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PostPosted: 18 Apr 2012, 00:11 
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With the season of regular competition being almost over now, I thought I could (and should) risk playing a tournament of minor importance using LP instead of the Ellen,to see how it would compare to using anti. I used a Meteor 845 OX, black, and a Friendship 837, OX, black. This was a completely friendly tournament, so a lot of friendly talk was going on besides and even during the matches, and opponents without exception complained about the heavy backspin they got from my LPs when I chopped. I even nearly beat the winner of the tournament. It made me doubt the anti. So a few days later I set up a test-training using both the Ellen and the LPs (also a Dawei 388 D, black, 0.8 mm), using all of them on the same blades. My kids sparred. At first they agreed that chops with LPs were more difficult and we thought it had to be because of the backspin, until we started watching balls that rolled over the floor. My eldest son pointed out that balls chopped with anti did actually have more rotation than balls chopped with LPs. So if the balls coming from the LPs were more difficult, that had to be because of the speed, not the spin, we thought. After some experimenting, to find out the right blade angle and so on, I started to chop faster balls with the anti, making better forward speed by making more solid contact. And true enough, the resulting balls were more difficult. It takes a technically well performed stroke to chop both fast and with a lot of backspin using anti, as you have to go forward and down at the same time fast and at the right angle; it is easier when balls come in relatively fast and with a lot of topspin, but even with slow balls it seems to be possible. The next tournament I'm going to chop with the Ellen again, now varying speed, spin and placement, but especially speed, and see how much opponents will complain this time... I am not done with anti yet!

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