OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Law of diminishing return my man. Yes, the person who knows how to spin it better will always be a heavier spinner than those who do not. But that gap will be closer together bringing them more towards the middle.

If the ball is less spiny and we'll say it takes off a heavy spin player's spin by 10%. The ball is the same but by the law of diminishing return it will effect an average spinner's spin decrease by say 7%. And someone who isn't much of a spin player at all will have say a 2% reduction... You get the idea.

Will in time that heavier spinner feel more spiny as we adjust? Compared to other players sure. But it will not feel as heavy as we once remembered. I still have players who tell me today, years later, that 38mm ball was fast.

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I have to disagree a bit.

Yes, heavy spinner will still be hevier spinner with the new ball, but the effectivity of spin is not linear.

Let me explain.

If we imagine that spin would reduce dramatically, lets say 30-50 %, the spinniest shots would disappear. We would be left with medium spin shots at best. And the (low to) medium spin shots are often the easiest shots to counter!

The difficulty to counter a shot doesn't go linearially, so that more spinny shot is allways more difficult to counter. Usually no spin shots are clearly more difficult than moderate spin shots, that's why pips are so effective. When I serve fast no spin serve with my pips, it is sometimes the most effective serve.

For the average tournament player the difficulty of countering a spinny shot (in serves, tops and chops etc.) could be classified this way:

SPIN / DIFFICULTY

No spin - 6
Low spin - 3
Medium spin - 5
Spinny - 7,5
Very spinny - 10

Only the "very spinny" shot is very difficult to counter. If very spinny is reduced 30% spin off, it's not much more difficult shot to counter than no spin!

So the conclusion is that if very spinny shots are reduced to medium spinny or spinny shot, most of the effect of spin is lost. And if take in the consideration than spinning the ball requires lot of effort and often riskier low angle contact, the benefits-costs ratio of heavily spinning the ball will become much worse than it is today.

Hi,

So the conclusion is that if very spinny shots are reduced to medium spinny or spinny shot, most of the effect of spin is lost. And if take in the consideration than spinning the ball requires lot of effort and often riskier low angle contact, the benefits-costs ratio of heavily spinning the ball will become much worse than it is today.

Yes, precisely: Your very fine analysis is the basis of my view of the very significant change in table tennis play dynamics given a reduction in spin of 30+% due to the new plastic ball. As this excellent forum thread has revealed, the Phase II manufacturing change to a seamed ball composed of different material will not result in this degree of spin reduction. It appears the seamed ball, which is anticipated to become the standard ball, will not reduce the spin to the extent in which play dynamics will be noticeably changed.

Thanks,

Donn

ATHLETES DO PREVAIL IN THE RACKET SPORTS.

Famous quote by Peet Sampras, american tennis idol

-- "I am a profy, I will do my uttermost to win in a match, even if they tell me to play with orange fruits."
***
Human's muscular power will govern the sport anyway, not the materials in use.
Good players will do only well with any ball whatever, be it of plastic or a fruit of orange tree.
The weaklings can never be winners, never. Table tennis is an athletic sport, this is a supreme truth not to be refuted.

Those slugish guys, with poor breathing capacity, when pretending to look sporty gamers will always be my worse aversion. Sorry.

ATHLETES DO PREVAIL IN THE RACKET SPORTS.

Famous quote by Peet Sampras, american tennis idol

-- "I am a profy, I will do my uttermost to win in a match, even if they tell me to play with orange fruits."
***
Human's muscular power will govern the sport anyway, not the materials in use.
Good players will do only well with any ball whatever, be it of plastic or a fruit of orange tree.
The weaklings can never be winners, never. Table tennis is an athletic sport, this is a supreme truth not to be refuted.

Those slugish guys, with poor breathing capacity, when pretending to look sporty gamers will always be my worse aversion. Sorry.

Hey, wait just a minute Igor. What about that short, fat Russian criss-cross blocker with antispin you were so excited about?

You claimed you were "a steady upholder and hot gospeller of the style." You can't have it both ways.

For me, the strategic and tactical aspects of table tennis are the reason I like it.

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My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics

You are leaving out the fact that the ball gained 0.2 grams when the size was increased. That mass gain mitigates some of the effects of the diameter increase. With the newer increase, there is no accompanying mass increase. Further, using diameter as a comparison obscures the fact that the frontal area of the ball increase with the square of the diameter. You'd get a better sense of things by comparing front profile or total surface area changes.

That said, this change will have less impact than the change from 38mm to 40mm. But the impact will be more than merely comparing 0.5mm to 2mm (without considering the other factors) would imply.

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Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil

Good points, Jay and ones I had forgotten about the 38 to 40 switch. However, the point of my post was to question the theory that ITTF's original intent for the switch to poly balls was to slow the sport down. I was pointing out that I never saw anything mentioning this being an objective until after the first prototypes (seamless) were introduced (a year and a half or so after the change was first passed by ITTF) and they were noticeably slower in both speed and spin. The ITTF began at that point to mention slowing the sport down as being an objective. I speculated that the ITTF may have done that as a way to "spin" those initial results so they looked "good" and still questioned slowing the sport down as an original objective of the change.

The only thing that I saw that supported that theory was the increase in size, which should, given similar material, construction, and force applied, result in slowing down the speed and spin of the ball. But the amount of reduction would be so small that it doesn't seem logical to me that that would be an original objective of the change.

However, with Donn's input, who has much deeper contacts within ITTF than I do, I could see how slowing the sport down may have all along been an unstated objective. I was just pointing out that until the first prototypes actually appeared, I don't recall any mention of slowing the sport down being an objective. Rather, what I recall was a lot of talk about the "celluloid ban" and how that material would soon be unavailable--something you debunked a long time ago.

Larry

I did some math a while ago that suggested to me that this change would have about half the effect of the 38-40mm change. And the 38-40mm change wasn't exactly radical.

I think the fact that the initial official stated motivation that was given for the change was bogus strongly suggests a hidden agenda.

Here's the official reason given in the 2011 AGM & BoD minutes

"Proposed by the Executive Committee
The ITTF Executive Committee and the Equipment Committee shall request from Ball Manufacturers to produce 40
mm PVC balls (non-celluloid), after the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games, in preparation for the total ban of celluloid
production by national governments around the world, and the Equipment Committee shall adjust the Technical Leaflet in
terms of description of the new material and tolerances" (emphasis added)

There was (and is) no impending ban. The official reason for the change was bogus. We heard about slowing down that game later but the size change happened simultaneously. Seems like a good fit for the real agenda to me.

But as with many things, I don't think slowing the game down was the only agenda. The motivation was probably more complex than just that. I think the ITTF has long wanted to change materials for a variety of reasons, but none of those reasons or combination of reasons was substantial enough to make the case to players, fans or manufacturers - especially after the grumbling that followed going from 38mm-40mm. So they invented a "crisis" to lube the machinery for change. Git 'er done!!

So I strongly suspect that slowing the game down was a major part or at least the triggering part. And now that it's all settled, they are saying so openly. It fits neatly with my view of how the world really operates. But I admit freely that I don't really know. Heck, with so much misinformation coming from Sharara on the topic, I'm not sure he even really knows. For all I know it was simply on Sharara's "bucket list" of stuff he wanted to get done before he left. So he ramrodded it through. Item checked off! Next.

So it's anybody's guess. And that's what bothers me most about it. The misinformation and related shenanigans just bug the crap out of me. The ball change itself? Heck it might be good. I was hopeful about the seamless ball and if the Nittaku Premium 40+ is as robust as Sean O thinks it will be, that could be a very good thing too.

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Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil

Yes, I really didn't like the misinformation either, although I don't think it bugs me as much as you. Politics as usual, IMO. They did change their reasoning for the change several times so who knows what their original motivation truly was. Donn had some pretty good insider information that suggested slowing down the game has been a goal of ITTF for some time now. So if that is indeed what is behind all of this, he's right on target--they've failed AGAIN to do so in a significant way.

Larry

<edit admin> baseless accusation

Here's what is to come:

Chinese Super League Introduces Two-Toned Ball

The new plastic ball that will be replacing the old celluloid ball hasn't received a lot of support from the table tennis community. Would a two-toned ball spark the excitement of fans? History will be made this year in China as the Super League will use a two-coloured ball for the finals. This is for people to enjoy more the sport.

China Interactive Sports. The Chinese Super League will be making history this year as they will be the first one to use a two-toned ball in their matches.

The finals of this season's Chinese Super League will be held on August 7 to 10. Aside from the anticipation of which teams will battle in the playoffs, there is also an increasing excitement as to the ball that will be used.

For the first time in history, a two-coloured ball will be used in a table tennis competition. Half of the ball is in orange while the other one is in white. It is manufactured by DHS.

The reason behind this is that the organisers and the Chinese Table Tennis Association would want ordinary fans to understand the sport more. With the use of the two-toned balls, the rotation will be much more visible during competitions and this will make fans appreciate the sport more.

During this year's World Team Championships, the Chinese Table Tennis Association has already submitted a proposal to the ITTF to use two-toned balls in competitions.

Rotation is the greatest charm of table tennis. Using just one coloured ball would not allow people to appreciate this. Now, with this proposal, the table tennis sport will be getting one notch higher in terms of promotion. This also proves that the Chinese Team is sincere in their efforts to the further development of the sport.

http://tabletennista.com/2014/7/chinese ... two-toned/

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The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out. | My OOAK Interview
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My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics

Perhaps that two tone pattern is easy to make, if the ball is constructed the usual way out of two halves, but the half and half pattern is less than ideal for revealing spin. A traditional soccer ball type of pattern would make more sense to reveal the amount of spin regardless of what axis the ball is spinning on.

With the half and half ball players will probably try to manipulate the ball on their tossing hand so as to contact the toss exactly in line with that black equator, making the serve appear like a no-spin when it is really heavy spin.

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IMO, you need to change the rackets in order to accomplish that. And given my experience with hardbat and also from watching the style and type of play at the WCPP (sandpaper), I think that change would have to be darned radical. And few have the will or even desire for that level of radical change. So the game is what it is and all that will ever evolve from the ITTF will be minor tweaks. Any radical change will have to come from outside if it is to happen. Which probably makes sense. Anything radical probably should have to prove itself first.

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil

I have a feeling that most of the time we'll just see a light yellow ball due to the blur. I can also imagine how TV broadcasts could end up showing the ball spinning in the wrong direction due to temporal aliasing (frame rates interacting with rotation rates - think wagon wheels spinning backwards in old Westerns.)

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil