OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
Live Table Tennis Videos Table Tennis News Live OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 30 Apr 2017, 05:04


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 190 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2014, 00:28 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User

Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 13:44
Posts: 2848
Location: Houston
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 119 times
In defense of ITTF in this case, they can only approve the balls that are brought before them, and they cannot approve balls that have not been submitted. So if manufacturers have not submitted a yellow ball, it can't be approved.

My larger concern is that ITTF will approve substandard balls, and I strongly believe, along with many other people, that Chinese seamed balls are currently substandard. The fact that manufacturers have not yet submitted a yellow ball for approval is actually encouraging news to me (even though I can see why it is bad for Andy Smith and his clubmates) because it means makers are still working to improve their product because they know that what they have now won't cut it moving forward. This makes me optimistic that at some point they will actually succeed, hopefully soon. I know they can succeed, since two factories in the world already make perfectly usable plastic balls.

_________________
Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH


Top
 Profile  
 


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!

PostPosted: 11 Dec 2014, 05:18 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 02 Feb 2009, 23:45
Posts: 202
Location: Staffordshire, UK
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Blade: Zoom Balance
FH: Omega V Asia
BH: VS>402 Limber
Baal wrote:
In defense of ITTF in this case, they can only approve the balls that are brought before them, and they cannot approve balls that have not been submitted. So if manufacturers have not submitted a yellow ball, it can't be approved.


Yes, I understand that, and the approval process. However, it seems odd (to the general public here) that there is no obligation for the manufacturers to produce both colours of ball. It still seems a trivial thing to have a colour variation to me, at least in terms of manufacture (if not R&D, which could be complicated in any number of devious technical ways I suppose). And the approval process itself could be a big investment of time, so maybe DHS, XSF and DF can't spare the time at the moment.

Regardless - I know better than to expect the ITTF to manage the plastic transition well these days so it's hard to surprise me. At the very least you might expect a definite timetable on the availability of orange non-cell balls so clubs who are currently relying on orange cell can plan effectively. As things stand, it seems to be in the hands of the manufacturers themselves, who probably won't want to dedicate much resource to a marginal product line.

Even if orange balls were to be scrapped totally, or not made available for 2-3 years, just knowing that for definite would help a lot. It's all very laissez-faire at present. I guess it doesn't seem very important when it only affects a small percentage of grass-roots players.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2014, 08:51 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 02 Mar 2010, 19:16
Posts: 1400
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 62 times
AndySmith wrote:
Baal wrote:
In defense of ITTF in this case, they can only approve the balls that are brought before them, and they cannot approve balls that have not been submitted. So if manufacturers have not submitted a yellow ball, it can't be approved.


Yes, I understand that, and the approval process. However, it seems odd (to the general public here) that there is no obligation for the manufacturers to produce both colours of ball. It still seems a trivial thing to have a colour variation to me, at least in terms of manufacture (if not R&D, which could be complicated in any number of devious technical ways I suppose). And the approval process itself could be a big investment of time, so maybe DHS, XSF and DF can't spare the time at the moment.

Regardless - I know better than to expect the ITTF to manage the plastic transition well these days so it's hard to surprise me. At the very least you might expect a definite timetable on the availability of orange non-cell balls so clubs who are currently relying on orange cell can plan effectively. As things stand, it seems to be in the hands of the manufacturers themselves, who probably won't want to dedicate much resource to a marginal product line.

Even if orange balls were to be scrapped totally, or not made available for 2-3 years, just knowing that for definite would help a lot. It's all very laissez-faire at present. I guess it doesn't seem very important when it only affects a small percentage of grass-roots players.


As per Torsten and Adham, you have the option to take the matter up to your national association, then have your national association present a proposal to ITTF to force manufacturers to make orange plastic balls in equal amount to white balls. ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2014, 09:48 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 09:24
Posts: 299
Location: Russia
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 14 times
naive fellows you are.
No demand --no product on offer, this is how the consumer good's industry works.

Again, why not to go on with celluloid? Orange celluloid is still available from a handred retailers worldwide.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2014, 13:31 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User

Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 13:44
Posts: 2848
Location: Houston
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 119 times
igorponger wrote:
naive fellows you are.
No demand --no product on offer, this is how the consumer good's industry works.

Again, why not to go on with celluloid? Orange celluloid is still available from a handred retailers worldwide.


I agree with this, actually. One kind of odd thing I have noticed on many trips to China -- I have never seen an orange ball used there, even in places where it might have been pretty helpful.

_________________
Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2014, 20:05 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 02 Feb 2009, 23:45
Posts: 202
Location: Staffordshire, UK
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Blade: Zoom Balance
FH: Omega V Asia
BH: VS>402 Limber
igorponger wrote:
naive fellows you are.
No demand --no product on offer, this is how the consumer good's industry works.

Again, why not to go on with celluloid? Orange celluloid is still available from a handred retailers worldwide.


Igor - my local league has had a specific rule in place regarding orange balls and their use in appropriate venues for decades. Orange balls have their place in the sport, regardless of what any individual's personal experience here is. When venues are difficult to obtain and the sport is in decline, orange balls can make a huge difference at the grass roots level. They make the difference when adding a new venue, new club, and new teams to a league.

Your first point is incredibly short-sighted - as short-sighted as the ITTF in fact. Are you saying that the overall health of a sport should be determined solely by the commercial interests of the manufacturers? Because I believe any sport goes far beyond what a "consumer goods industry" represents, or should do at least. I might have expected the ITTF to have a responsibility of governance in matters such as this, but they appear to have left it as a commercial matter for the manufacturers. With the general mess they have made of the whole plastic ball saga, this doesn't really surprise me anymore. Although I had once expected that a governing body would make some attempt to safeguard the basic fundamentals of the sport (and I count the availability of orange balls as fundamental), that expectation has long since gone.

Your attitude about supply and demand appears to line up with the ITTF's attitude to some degree, and they both stink IMO. And if there was no demand - why are orange balls being made with cell now? The answer (of course) is that demand is lower, so white has been 100% prioritised. There is not, as you state "no demand".

As for "why not go with celluloid" - excellent point! Why didn't we think of that! Groan. We are trying to plan for the future. We would like to use plastic for many reasons, but face difficult decisions now simply because of bad planning on the ITTF's part. The safest route for venues like ours would be to stick with orange cell, but this splits the equipment behaviour across the various clubs in our leagues. We will have to train with multiple different ball types for best results, as will our opponents. We have high level players who want to concentrate on plastic due to its use in higher-level competition - they don't want the distraction of using cell. It would be great if I could push via our local committee to standardise on plastic ball selection for next year (seamless, I was hoping for), but then I have to immediately tell them than my own club can't use plastic anyway which must sound hilarious.

It's just one more unnecessary, frustrating, annoying nuisance to add to the list when it comes to plastic ball adoption. If only plastic balls performed identically to cell, eh? Then there wouldn't be anything to worry about.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014, 06:03 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User

Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 13:44
Posts: 2848
Location: Houston
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 119 times
AndySmith wrote:
igorponger wrote:
naive fellows you are.
No demand --no product on offer, this is how the consumer good's industry works.

Again, why not to go on with celluloid? Orange celluloid is still available from a handred retailers worldwide.


Igor - my local league has had a specific rule in place regarding orange balls and their use in appropriate venues for decades. Orange balls have their place in the sport, regardless of what any individual's personal experience here is. When venues are difficult to obtain and the sport is in decline, orange balls can make a huge difference at the grass roots level. They make the difference when adding a new venue, new club, and new teams to a league.

Your first point is incredibly short-sighted - as short-sighted as the ITTF in fact. Are you saying that the overall health of a sport should be determined solely by the commercial interests of the manufacturers? Because I believe any sport goes far beyond what a "consumer goods industry" represents, or should do at least. I might have expected the ITTF to have a responsibility of governance in matters such as this, but they appear to have left it as a commercial matter for the manufacturers. With the general mess they have made of the whole plastic ball saga, this doesn't really surprise me anymore. Although I had once expected that a governing body would make some attempt to safeguard the basic fundamentals of the sport (and I count the availability of orange balls as fundamental), that expectation has long since gone.

Your attitude about supply and demand appears to line up with the ITTF's attitude to some degree, and they both stink IMO. And if there was no demand - why are orange balls being made with cell now? The answer (of course) is that demand is lower, so white has been 100% prioritised. There is not, as you state "no demand".

As for "why not go with celluloid" - excellent point! Why didn't we think of that! Groan. We are trying to plan for the future. We would like to use plastic for many reasons, but face difficult decisions now simply because of bad planning on the ITTF's part. The safest route for venues like ours would be to stick with orange cell, but this splits the equipment behaviour across the various clubs in our leagues. We will have to train with multiple different ball types for best results, as will our opponents. We have high level players who want to concentrate on plastic due to its use in higher-level competition - they don't want the distraction of using cell. It would be great if I could push via our local committee to standardise on plastic ball selection for next year (seamless, I was hoping for), but then I have to immediately tell them than my own club can't use plastic anyway which must sound hilarious.

It's just one more unnecessary, frustrating, annoying nuisance to add to the list when it comes to plastic ball adoption. If only plastic balls performed identically to cell, eh? Then there wouldn't be anything to worry about.


Definitely there are places where an orange ball is much better. I am sure in time that there will be orange plastic balls, but as it stands now, two of the four factories that supply the world cannot even make white ones that are worth playing with, and it is not fair to completely ignore their commercial interests. There needs to be competition or we get hosed in other ways.

_________________
Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014, 07:01 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 11 Mar 2013, 21:12
Posts: 849
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 37 times
The only thing we can figure out with any confidence is that orange is trivial enough to put into a marketing gimmick. "Commercial interests" is just rationalizing in lieu of reliable info.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014, 07:37 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 17 Mar 2009, 04:45
Posts: 534
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 29 times
Torsten wrote:
Yes, sorry - browsing through the posts I recognized that I forgot to reply to this question of you.

As said in the Q&A, ITTF did not make any restriction for the colours, so from our side the manufacturers can bring in orange plastic balls for approval tomorrow.
The reason why they do not do so yet is probably still the same: They need to finalize the research on material composition for the white balls; if they double the colour now, they very likely double their expenses. So, we assume, they focus on the white balls until these are optimized. As ITTF allowed for released tolerances only from May 2014 - December 2015, this process must be finished until then. This means, it is reasonable to expect orange balls in 2015.


And this points to the problem with the whole ITTF approach. ITTF events should not be played with balls that are not optimized and that apparently require a relaxing of standards? Players shouldn't have to bear ball costs on the order of four times what they previously had to bear (cost increase + increased rate of breakage). The rollout was overly rushed. The increased minimum diameter tolerance was unnecessary.

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014, 08:43 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 02 Mar 2010, 19:16
Posts: 1400
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 62 times
wturber wrote:
And this points to the problem with the whole ITTF approach. ITTF events should not be played with balls that are not optimized and that apparently require a relaxing of standards? Players shouldn't have to bear ball costs on the order of four times what they previously had to bear (cost increase + increased rate of breakage). The rollout was overly rushed. The increased minimum diameter tolerance was unnecessary.


Like the clichè goes it's all about the money for the ITTF...not the players.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014, 08:50 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 17 Mar 2009, 04:45
Posts: 534
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 29 times
AndySmith wrote:

Your first point is incredibly short-sighted - as short-sighted as the ITTF in fact. Are you saying that the overall health of a sport should be determined solely by the commercial interests of the manufacturers? Because I believe any sport goes far beyond what a "consumer goods industry" represents, or should do at least. I might have expected the ITTF to have a responsibility of governance in matters such as this, but they appear to have left it as a commercial matter for the manufacturers.


Actually, if they had left it as a commercial or market matter, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It is the fact that they forced the market to produce a plastic ball with a different tolerance on a specific (but alterable) timeline that has produced your problem. The "market" vote was to leave well enough alone for the time being. The proof of that is that plastic balls have been allowed for some time but had not been made in the 40mm ball era until the ITTF intervened with their claims and mandates. Don't blame the market for the situation. Blame the ITTF.

As an interesting side note, if the market had pushed down the 40mm plastic ball road on its own a few years prior to the ITTF mandates and their announcements, then it would have probably been politically impractical for the ITTF to implement the new tolerance standard that results in a slightly larger, slower, less spinny, and perhaps more fragile ball.

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil


Last edited by wturber on 12 Dec 2014, 14:40, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014, 14:28 
Offline
Dark Knight
Dark Knight
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2006, 12:34
Posts: 31123
Location: Adelaide, AU
Has thanked: 1376 times
Been thanked: 837 times
Blade: Trinity Carbon
FH: Victas VS > 401
BH: Dornenglanz OX
wturber wrote:
As an interesting side note, if the market had pushed down the 40mm plastic ball road on its own a few prior to the ITTF mandates and their announcements, then it would have probably been politically impractical for the ITTF to implement the new tolerance standard that results in a slightly larger, slower, less spinny, and perhaps more fragile ball.
So true! :up: :up: :up:

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Table Tennis Reviews / Articles | Table Guide | Robot Guide | Re-Impact Blades
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide | Novel way to glue OX pips


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014, 20:42 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 02 Feb 2009, 23:45
Posts: 202
Location: Staffordshire, UK
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Blade: Zoom Balance
FH: Omega V Asia
BH: VS>402 Limber
wturber wrote:
AndySmith wrote:

Your first point is incredibly short-sighted - as short-sighted as the ITTF in fact. Are you saying that the overall health of a sport should be determined solely by the commercial interests of the manufacturers? Because I believe any sport goes far beyond what a "consumer goods industry" represents, or should do at least. I might have expected the ITTF to have a responsibility of governance in matters such as this, but they appear to have left it as a commercial matter for the manufacturers.


Actually, if they had left it as a commercial or market matter, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It is the fact that they forced the market to produce a plastic ball with a different tolerance on a specific (but alterable) timeline that has produced your problem. The "market" vote was to leave well enough alone for the time being. The proof of that is that plastic balls have been allowed for some time but had not been made in the 40mm ball era until the ITTF intervened with their claims and mandates. Don't blame the market for the situation. Blame the ITTF.

As an interesting side note, if the market had pushed down the 40mm plastic ball road on its own a few years prior to the ITTF mandates and their announcements, then it would have probably been politically impractical for the ITTF to implement the new tolerance standard that results in a slightly larger, slower, less spinny, and perhaps more fragile ball.


Absolutely right. Talking about market forces at this stage is pretty much a smokescreen. Plastic could have been introduced in a sensible, structured, organised way. It hasn't. Criticism is inevitable.

Right at the start of all of this, I was one of the few people who thought that the introduction of plastic would be a good thing for the sport. I still feel that way about the potential - the seamless balls are excellent, and I enjoy playing with them more than cell. But back then I would never have imagined the current situation of relaxed specs, seamed and seamless plastic balls playing fundamentally differently, shockingly poor durability from the ball used in ITTF major comps, and no orange balls. The result of this mess is confusion and frustration on the ground. I'm not looking forward to playing next season.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2014, 05:02 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 17 Mar 2009, 04:45
Posts: 534
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 29 times
AndySmith wrote:
Absolutely right. Talking about market forces at this stage is pretty much a smokescreen. Plastic could have been introduced in a sensible, structured, organised way. It hasn't. Criticism is inevitable.

Right at the start of all of this, I was one of the few people who thought that the introduction of plastic would be a good thing for the sport. I still feel that way about the potential - the seamless balls are excellent, and I enjoy playing with them more than cell. But back then I would never have imagined the current situation of relaxed specs, seamed and seamless plastic balls playing fundamentally differently, shockingly poor durability from the ball used in ITTF major comps, and no orange balls. The result of this mess is confusion and frustration on the ground. I'm not looking forward to playing next season.


The misinformation/lies told at the outset spelled trouble in my mind. The fact that a new ball was being mandated prior to it being tested was troublesome, but I didn't pay that much attention to it because the bigger issue to me was the deceit and the fact that the affiliated national organizations didn't appear upset. That was evidenced by the lack of opposing propositions in the subsequent AGM. So at that point, other than making it a point to keep facts straight, I just pretty much shrugged my shoulders and sat back and watched. But even then, I thought the idea of a seamless ball, if it could be done well, was actually a bit promising/exciting and could be a good thing for the sport.

It was inevitable that the change was going to occur. I think RoundRobin made this call first. It was highly also likely that there would be problems. But there was nothing for players to do but point out the folly. And all (or most) of the problems will eventually shake themselves out because many of the people involved ultimately do want a good result for table tennis.

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2014, 14:10 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User

Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 13:44
Posts: 2848
Location: Houston
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 119 times
I agree with all of you guys. It was handled horribly, not surprising given all the stuff Sharara said that was questionable. I also expected to hate seamless balls. I also did not expect this much chaos. I did not expect Chinese seamed balls to be this bad. Nothing will change.

_________________
Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 190 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2012 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: