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Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Küneth
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=26354
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Author:  haggisv [ 12 Aug 2014, 13:38 ]
Post subject:  Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Küneth

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By Dr. Torsten Küneth, Equipment Committee, Member in charge of ball approvals

http://tabletennis.org.au/Portals/16/Pl ... ls_Q_A.pdf

There is some useful information there, although some of the issues are not really being answered (like who move up the tolerance at all, and the difficulties of having so many different balls).

It was useful to see a list of the manufacturers, including the German company Weener, who's balls we've not seen yet.

Author:  mynamenotbob [ 12 Aug 2014, 13:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

Nice mixture of spin, double talk and half truths. Propaganda at its finest.

Author:  dunc [ 12 Aug 2014, 19:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

Are you going to substantiate that allegation MNNB? :)

Author:  mynamenotbob [ 12 Aug 2014, 22:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

Just read it. They ask questions then answer something else.

Author:  haggisv [ 12 Aug 2014, 23:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

I thought there was some useful information in there. I agree that they avoided some of the real probing questions that we would have, but of course I didn't expect anything else.

Author:  JimTh [ 13 Aug 2014, 01:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

I have already played with 4 plastic balls (all brand new, all ITTF approved, all 3-star 40+) - only one of them (when dropped the same height) bounced about the same as my celluloid ball. So in this (at least) this info is (at least) inaccurate. At worst, a deliberate misrepresentation.

Author:  Baal [ 14 Aug 2014, 05:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

JimTh wrote:
I have already played with 4 plastic balls (all brand new, all ITTF approved, all 3-star 40+) - only one of them (when dropped the same height) bounced about the same as my celluloid ball. So in this (at least) this info is (at least) inaccurate. At worst, a deliberate misrepresentation.


I agree. I have played many Chinese seamed balls now, closer to 16, including DHS, Joola, and Nittaku. None has bounced as high as any celluloid ball we used as a comparison. Not even one. A higher percentage of plastic balls were clearly not round. My experience therefore contradicts his claim to the contrary. It is true that there has always been variation in celluloid balls, but nothing has ever played like these. I am not a beginner, and I went through the 38-40 change. So far, this change has been rather less successful.

Second, while some have said that the most recent approved seamless balls may actually play better than Chinese seamed balls, and they have a better bounce, the statement that "the sound improved due to testers‘ feedbacks and there is no longer a significant sound difference from celluloid" is simply not true for that class of seamless balls. i don't care that much about sound if they play well, but still, that comment is simply false.

Finally, he simply did not address the issue of durability that people report for seamed Chinese balls. That is the elephant in the room.

Given the history (like who owns certain patents0 and what we know already about these balls, I will assume deliberate misrepresentation(s) until proven otherwise.

Finally, I pray that Weener balls will prove to be the best. Such a great name!

Author:  larrythoman [ 14 Aug 2014, 07:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

Baal wrote:
Finally, I pray that Weener balls will prove to be the best. Such a great name!

Come to think about it, Weener was the German company that challenged the granting of the European patent to the wife of that ITTF official who filed those patents worldwide for TT balls not made from celluloid. The last I heard (2013), a lawyer hired by FIT thought that Weener would be successful in their challenge to that patent and the patent would be invalidated. I wonder what ever happened to that legal challenge.

Larry

Author:  Retriever [ 14 Aug 2014, 07:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

I love the Orwellian way that the presentation ignores:
1. How the poly ball was originally justified.
2. How the size, only for the poly ball, was increased without being voted for at any publicly recorded level.
3. The patent issue (held by the wife of an ITTF Equipment committee member, letter by the TT manufacturer body etc).
4. How any further information / quibbles / serious questions will be dealt with by email.

Has anyone tried the email shown in the presentation?

Author:  Debater [ 14 Aug 2014, 08:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

I'm currently doing my own testing on a batch of Joola plastic balls for our league. A couple of forum members have already had sight of a short video I've made checking the "roundness" of these balls and a veer test and given me feedback - thank you to you both.

I'm still doing further tests based on what the ITTF Technical T3 tests for.

In this Q&A session Torsten Kuneth says "The brand’s owner is conducting individual quality management,market distribution, service etc.".

If you buy a box of Joola Celluloid 3 star balls it says clearly on it "Selected quality" and they are approved by JTTAA. On the plastic balls box, there is no "Selected quality" mentioned and there's no mention of JTTAA approval.

From the tests I've done there is a very good reason why they might want to remove that "selected quality" claim and I'll be contacting Joola direct for their comments on the videos and also the ITTF.

I'd also like to know why the ITTF abdicate responsibility for testing balls once they've got approval. I had a problem with quality control on some Giant Dragon rubbers that I bought and tested and asked Odd Gustavsen, then chairman of the ITTF Equipment Committee what type of testing the ITTF did once a rubber was authorised to ensure the rubber continued to meet the requirements of the laws of table tennis. His reply was that they test the rubbers again after 10 years, testing the same things again.

If it's the same with the balls and you were a manufacturer would you pre check the balls that you were going to send to the ITTF for testing to make sure they met the known requirments before they were packaged up and sent to the ITTF? And then once they've passed, would you consider selling what was left safe in the knowledge you've got 10yrs before they are checked again?

On a positive note, it's good the ITTF are finally at least providing something official about these balls, especially on how to recognise them. Shame it's so late in the game.

Author:  larrythoman [ 14 Aug 2014, 12:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

Debater wrote:
If it's the same with the balls and you were a manufacturer would you pre check the balls that you were going to send to the ITTF for testing to make sure they met the known requirments before they were packaged up and sent to the ITTF? And then once they've passed, would you consider selling what was left safe in the knowledge you've got 10yrs before they are checked again?

According to the linked PDF:

1. Quality control is done through the ITTF random testing:
•  Balls will be bought directly in retail shops by ITTF, randomly and anonymously, and will be tested in an ITTF laboratory.
•  Repeated failure to meet the tolerance ranges is resulting in suspension of the approval.
•  Starts summer 2014 for plastic balls and is implemented on a 2-year basis (was always in place for celluloid balls).


So apparently for balls, the ITTF randomly buys approved balls from a retail source and then tests them every two years. If those balls fail the ITTF tests, the ITTF would then suspend approval of that brand. But that PDF also says that suspended brands can continue to be used for another 6 months after suspension. It doesn't say anything about how a brand can be unsuspended.

Larry

Author:  mynamenotbob [ 14 Aug 2014, 13:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

What about how current plastic balls people purchase and get used to playing now will become illegal in 2016 due to weight?

Author:  mynamenotbob [ 14 Aug 2014, 15:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

The best part is when they gloss over the unnecessary .6mm ball size increase by calling it a change in "diameter specification" then paying it off with the line "ITTF does not change any rule but improves the requirements." ROTFLMAO

That line has Adham's classic doubletalk imprint all over it.

Author:  haggisv [ 14 Aug 2014, 20:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

Looks like MNNB managed to get off an earlier unedited copy of this document, which he's posted in his blog here. This man has connections, or has possibly planted a mole in the ITTF! :o :o :o Check it out, it's well worth a read! :up:

Author:  Baal [ 15 Aug 2014, 00:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Q & A about Plastic balls - by ITTF's Torsten Kuneth

mynamenotbob wrote:
The best part is when they gloss over the unnecessary .6mm ball size increase by calling it a change in "diameter specification" then paying it off with the line "ITTF does not change any rule but improves the requirements." ROTFLMAO

That line has Adham's classic doubletalk imprint all over it.


That is a really good example of it. :swear:

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