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PostPosted: 08 May 2017, 23:27 
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There are some who cite the evidence for it not being a flat,stationary plain as - too big a conspiracy to keep under wraps - that's not evidence I'm afraid.

So if the earth were 24000 miles in circumference - it would be 6000 miles from the North Pole to the equator. The total curvature of the earth is 4000 miles.

So a plane travelling 500 mph would take 12 hours or 720 minutes to reach the equator.

Do the sums and a plane would have to drop approx 146 feet per second,not per minute to follow the curvature of the earth travelling from the North Pole to the equator!

I rest my case.


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PostPosted: 09 May 2017, 00:45 
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mac33 wrote:
There are some who cite the evidence for it not being a flat,stationary plain as - too big a conspiracy to keep under wraps - that's not evidence I'm afraid.


You do not understand the concept of burden of proof, or how evidence works. Sure, a massive global conspiracy involving all nations of the world and a huge military presence is possible, but it's so elaborate, so easy to pierce with common sense, that it's highly improbable. It's up to YOU to prove YOUR proposal of the conspiracy, not for anyone else to disprove it. The evidence would have to be so complete, so bulletproof, to be convincing because there is a mountain of evidence for a spherical earth, and your claim is so complex and outlandish it would need an enormous body of evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

The typical flat earther argues from a position of ignorance, hoping that the reader is similarly ignorant. This might not even be a conscious approach. There is no other way someone would even bring up the skyline stuff, or talk about train tracks while presenting no compelling argument or evidence that these individual examples shouldn't be explained via simple, well-known principles.

The way your method of discussion progresses is perfectly displayed with your train line example. You bring it up saying that it's a long train line, over water. You ask if there a bend in it. You say if you put a laser line along it, if it is flat, it shows that the entire earth is flat. First up, if you wanted to use this train line as part of your body of proof, you would have to have done this experiment yourself under controlled conditions, or point to peer-reviewed, reliable, published papers. You have not. Then, imagine you had proved that the track doesn't follow a curved path. All you have proved is that the track is flat - you can't simply expand that out and make sweeping assumptions that cover the entire planet. But the main take-away point is that just bringing this up shows your incredible bias. All you've done is point towards a train line over water, offered no evidence or measurement, and said "I bet we'd find this". Well, until you put some effort in and do some measuring, this is worthless.

mac33 wrote:

So if the earth were 24000 miles in circumference - it would be 6000 miles from the North Pole to the equator. The total curvature of the earth is 4000 miles.

So a plane travelling 500 mph would take 12 hours or 720 minutes to reach the equator.

Do the sums and a plane would have to drop approx 146 feet per second,not per minute to follow the curvature of the earth travelling from the North Pole to the equator!

I rest my case.


What this does is show a really odd misunderstanding of altitude, gravity, and movement. The fact that you're picturing the situation to be like this, or explainable in this way, says a lot.

You talk about the plane "dropping", but of course it doesn't "drop" at all, relative to the earth. Here is a discussion (you will immediately ignore) on an aviation forum about this non-issue.

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques ... -of-the-ea


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PostPosted: 09 May 2017, 02:23 
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mac33 wrote:
You mean parallel to the sea. The bridge,the longest in the world I believe is built over the sea.


Yes, exactly. Which is why the bridge follows the curve of the (spherical) Earth. :lol:

mac33 wrote:
How do you know the tracks are curved to take account for the supposed curvature of the earth?


And how do you know they're not? :lol: Admit it, you don't.

mac33 wrote:
Again,do you have any links to how they make these steel railway line sections with built in curve to take account for the supposed curvature of the earth?

And how much curve is built in to each section?


I suppose you've never had a close look at train tracks - they don't mill the hundred kilometers or whatever it is in one section. (I suppose the significance of this will fly right over your head in any case... but consider that even if they did, something that long and narrow would be as flexible as sphagetti - it'd follow the contours of the ground if you just let it lie on the sleepers.. You've heard of sleepers, right? :lol: You could lie such a rail over Mount Everest, it would follow the shape of the ground.)

mac33 wrote:
P.S - I know there's no curve built in to these tracks as there's no need!


Ah.... I see.... Maybe you do get it after all... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: 09 May 2017, 03:11 
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I think from the aviation forum link that Andy provided this is the most pertinent and explanatory statement as to show mathematically why the earth is not a flat plane besides all the stuff in regards to gravity and air pressure that account for an aircraft needing to make no adjustments to have the plane follow the earth curvature from an altitudinal perspective:

Quote:
On the other hand, pilots very much do have to take the curvature of the earth into account when planning the lateral direction in which to fly. For example, to fly from New York to London, the shortest path (fewest miles over the ground or water) heads out of New York on a course of about 51.4 degrees. The return flight starts out toward New York on a course of about 288 degrees. Similarly, from London to Tenerife is a course of 213.5 degrees, 23.1 returning, and from Tenerife to New York is 300.5 degrees, 85.8 returning. If you take those three flight paths as the three sides of a triangle, it has angles of 34.4 degrees at New York, 74.5 degrees at London, and 82.6 degrees at Tenerife, which adds up to 191.5 degrees, which is impossible for any triangle plotted on a flat plane. Pilots and other people who plan the routes of aircraft do so by calculations (nowadays generally done in software) that take into account the approximately spherical shape of the Earth to do so (and nowadays even take into account the few miles' difference between the diameter of the Earth measured from pole to pole and the diameter measured across the equator).


As we all know, any triangle has its angles equate to 180 degrees when drawn on a flat plane. Having the angles add to 191.5 degrees shows quite clearly that the triangle is shaped around a curved surface.

Oh, and the video that Mac put up a little while back showing an almost "straight-edged" horizon - its clear in the video the altitude of the camera is not too high as land detail is clearly distinguishable in it. These sort of features disappear at about 10,000 feet....and with the camera's field of vision (width of the frame), its not a long enough view of the horizon to show much curve at that height (nice trick though huh?) :lol:

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PostPosted: 09 May 2017, 03:29 
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mac33 wrote:
There are some who cite the evidence for it not being a flat,stationary plain as - too big a conspiracy to keep under wraps - that's not evidence I'm afraid.

So if the earth were 24000 miles in circumference - it would be 6000 miles from the North Pole to the equator. The total curvature of the earth is 4000 miles.

So a plane travelling 500 mph would take 12 hours or 720 minutes to reach the equator.

Do the sums and a plane would have to drop approx 146 feet per second,not per minute to follow the curvature of the earth travelling from the North Pole to the equator!

I rest my case.


Actually Mac, the plane only has to drop about 30,000 feet...which is the altitude it would have climbed to and cruised at....the descent would take 15 or 20 mins...been in enough planes to feel them dropping :lol: Your case is not rested my friend...and probably never will be.

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PostPosted: 09 May 2017, 05:09 
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Short 5 minute vid that I got from EricDubai.com

Beautiful countryside if you don't buy what you see with your own eyes.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dIfIVNH-z ... IdphVKEwaw


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PostPosted: 09 May 2017, 15:47 
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This???



What's he talking about, the horizon is definitely curved, you can see it in the video when you get high enough. When you can see it, that is. Not sure what the railway footage is supposed to show. Other than that, it's a long yawn-fest, like most of these videos that purport to show something but don't.

I suppose bacteria on a basketball would complain about not seeing a curved horizon until they're a couple inches above the surface, too... if they had eyes, that is... :lol: They'd think the basketball was flat... Some bacteria would probably start a "flat basketball" theory.

mac33 wrote:
There are some who cite the evidence for it not being a flat,stationary plain as - too big a conspiracy to keep under wraps - that's not evidence I'm afraid.

So if the earth were 24000 miles in circumference - it would be 6000 miles from the North Pole to the equator. The total curvature of the earth is 4000 miles.

So a plane travelling 500 mph would take 12 hours or 720 minutes to reach the equator.

Do the sums and a plane would have to drop approx 146 feet per second,not per minute to follow the curvature of the earth travelling from the North Pole to the equator!

I rest my case.


"Daddy! Daddy! If the world is round, why don't we fall off?"

"You wouldn't understand, I'll explain it to you when you're older."

:lol:

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PostPosted: 20 May 2017, 16:11 
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I hope these ppl are all fans of Discworld by Terry Pratchett. Becos how do you explain the Sun ? Timezones ? the Phases of the Moon ? Yearly seasons ? The Jet Streams ? The shadows cast by the Sun in various locations around the world ?

There are too many things that point to a "Globe" that looks like an squished orange that is like a dried prune without any of the water on it.


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PostPosted: 20 May 2017, 21:41 
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mac33 wrote:
There are some who cite the evidence for it not being a flat,stationary plain as - too big a conspiracy to keep under wraps - that's not evidence I'm afraid.
Strong indication, but not irrefutable evidence, I can agree about that.
Look back at the video of "Thousands of miles of flat earth". The starting image is of an airport terminal with a flat roof, but does it look flat to begin with? You are using this video as evidence of flatness, when the lenses in use have some of the worst barrel distortion I have seen (intentional "fisheye effect" excepted). If you are concerned about the quality of evidence, you'd better clean out your own rubbish first.
mac33 wrote:
So if the earth were 24000 miles in circumference - it would be 6000 miles from the North Pole to the equator. The total curvature of the earth is 4000 miles.

So a plane travelling 500 mph would take 12 hours or 720 minutes to reach the equator.

Do the sums and a plane would have to drop approx 146 feet per second,not per minute to follow the curvature of the earth travelling from the North Pole to the equator!

"Drop" meaning "Yield to the force of gravity"? You conveniently omit the part of "spherical earth theory" where the physical principles also dictate that the gravity field curves, so half the "drop" you assume will be horizontal. Still a considerable falling motion left in your calculation, assuming that the pilots are able (and willing) to keep the plane in absolutely zero rotation. Fortunately, pilots will adjust vertical direction so the bottom of the plane will face towards earth.

Imagine that the plane might need corrections in vertical direction to adjust for air currents/turbulence that the plane travels through, to keep the altitude and maintain a largely horizontal flight path. Adjusting +/- 5 degrees up and down within a few seconds is not uncommon. Assuming a spherical earth with the dimensions you specified above, the additional adjustments required amount to 90 degrees over 12 hours, or 7,5 degrees per hour, or one eighth of a degree per minute. This additional adjustment is so small that no one will notice it. Not even the pilot.

Like the previous train example, the adjustments required to allow for earth curvature are negligible compared to the adjustments for local environment (air current/turbulence for a plane, or topography for a train).

Back to the railway, you once asked how to bend rails. See this, and pay close attention to what is said after 3 minutes:


Did you get that part about rails being "flexible enough to negotiate bends in the line"? That implies that they are also flexible enough to follow earth's curvature. (I'm sure that some railway curves in station/urban regions still require mechanical rail bending, but that's rather beside the point, don't you think?)


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PostPosted: 22 May 2017, 16:32 
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I guess one of the things you learn in 9th Grade physics class is how objects move in circles, i.e. they're always "falling" (or "accelerating", but let's not make things complicated) towards the center of the circle, and that this acceleration is caused by the "centripetal force" (objects don't move in circles by themselves, they want to move in straight lines). I suppose Mac is being deliberately obtuse here, even if he doesn't believe the Earth is a sphere, surely he knows that everyone who does believe it is a sphere believes that gravity always operates towards the Earth's center, so this airliner "falling down" is indeed falling down, toward the center of the earth, as it travels around the sphere. Doesn't mean it's altitude gets less, just that it's going around in a circle.

Humans are very tiny compared to the size of the Earth, so everything nearby "looks flat". Of course it does. Any person can see that, I don't see why Mac can't. I'm sure he does, he's either he's being deliberately obtuse or being silly. Basketballs look round to us because they're a smaller than we are, but to a bacteria with eyes it, too, would "look flat". Until they got about a foot above it, of course.

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PostPosted: 23 May 2017, 03:45 
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Had one old guy literally do a full sprint to the car park when I brought up this subject!


In the end, we return to the question, just how much do you love truth? Do you really love truth or are you just curious? Do you love it enough to rebuild your understanding to conform to a reality that doesn't fit your current beliefs, and doesn't feel 120% happy? Do you love truth enough to continue seeking even when it hurts, when it reveals aspects of yourself (or human society, or the universe) that are shocking, complex and disturbing, or humbling, glorious and amazing - or even, when truth is far beyond human mind itself? Just how much do we love truth? It's a good question to ask ourselves, I think.

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PostPosted: 23 May 2017, 06:44 
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Was reminded of this, for some reason.

“William James, father of American psychology, tells of meeting an old lady who told him the Earth rested on the back of a huge turtle. "But, my dear lady", Professor James asked, as politely as possible, "what holds up the turtle?" "Ah", she said, "that's easy. He is standing on the back of another turtle." "Oh, I see", said Professor James, still being polite. "But would you be so good as to tell me what holds up the second turtle?" "It's no use, Professor", said the old lady, realizing he was trying to lead her into a logical trap. "It's turtles-turtles-turtles, all the way!”

— from Wilson, R.A. (1983, 1997) Prometheus Rising. Phoenix, AZ: New Falcon Publishers, 1983.

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PostPosted: 23 May 2017, 15:14 
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Yeah, not surprisingly the turtles got brought up some time back... My, we've really been at this a long time... :lol:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=29637&p=314139&hilit=turtles#p314139

mac33 wrote:
Had one old guy literally do a full sprint to the car park when I brought up this subject!


Yeah, I can see where he was coming from - most people have the same reaction to those, ah, what're they called - you know, they knock on your door and want to give your these magazines called The Lighthouse or something of the sort. Or those other people who dress in white shirts and go around in pairs and buttonhole you when you're on the train and want to talk about, uh, religious stuff.

mac33 wrote:
In the end, we return to the question, just how much do you love truth? Do you really love truth or are you just curious? Do you love it enough to rebuild your understanding to conform to a reality that doesn't fit your current beliefs, and doesn't feel 120% happy? Do you love truth enough to continue seeking even when it hurts, when it reveals aspects of yourself (or human society, or the universe) that are shocking, complex and disturbing, or humbling, glorious and amazing - or even, when truth is far beyond human mind itself? Just how much do we love truth? It's a good question to ask ourselves, I think.


Ironic, isn't it. When all else fails, he tries to psych us out, as they say in America. :lol:

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 29 May 2017, 00:38 
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On a serious note, found this video on a website called "Find your level - Science the myth and the reality". It seems to suggest there is a connection between Flat Earth Theory, large bodies of water and how tuning and boosting creates a dome with table tennis rubbers. They mention something about Flatliners Law and the Shahara Airy Function. Way beyond me though.



If flat earth theory is real, how long before the ITTF introduce the "flat ball" to slow the game down for TV audiences?

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Last edited by Debater on 29 May 2017, 01:28, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 29 May 2017, 01:27 
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Seems to me Table tennis players should believe in a round earth....while Ice Hockey players believe in a Flat Earth....for Puck's Sake! :P :lol:

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