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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 23:44 
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So, this is a problem I only have with high level players (1st class and higher) in the dutch regional league who play with a lot of backspin. And not your regular backspin, but a lot, consistently.

I play a modern defensive style with blocking/pushing with my backhand (LP) and whenever I get the chance I loop around with FH (topspin or topspin/smash). Occasionally I will attack the odd backspin / no spin ball with my LP side but not much.

There's 1 femaly player at the club who's been multiple club champion and I have absolutely no chance against. She plays inverted on her FH and short pips on her bh. She plays every stroke on the FH with extreme backspin. No matter what I reverse back. The backspin is so strong I can't loop it with my FH, my topspin is just not extreme enough to counter it. And with my pimple side I either push it in the net, or after 2/3 low shoves I pop it up high and she attacks (either bh / fh). And her placement is so extremely good I can't counter her attack (most of time it's out of reach).

Other example. I had to play a match as substitute for a regular player in the 1st class. He was a very allround player and I could match him in the rallies. But ultimately I lost the match due to his extreme backspin service. I'd usually push aggresively but then he'd easily loop around with his FH and kill it. And if I tried to return it short he'd flip it, or give another exteme backspin push.

Main theme of the story, all these players use the reversal well to attack/kill me next shot, or force me into pushing it into the net. What should I focus on to fix this problem?

Strange thing is I do better against even higher rated players who play an open game or who play allround/defensive but with less backspin. Extreme backspin is just the weak point of my game and I can't really practice it because I don't train enough against that type of spin.. I wish there was some kind of trick or strategy I'm missing here

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Setup 'slow counter': Dr. Neubauer Barricade DEF / Yasaka Rakza 7 1.8 mm / Spinlord Blitzschlag OX
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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 23:49 
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Do you know what kind of SP the female player is using? I asking because it's very hard to impart a lot of spin with an SP, and normally an SP push would have much less backspin compared to an inverted rubber.

Can you find a training partner that could feed heavy backspin balls to you? Or use a robot and set it up for heavy backspin? Some robots can even do serves, I believe.


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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 00:19 
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She imparts the backspin mainly with her inverted side. The pimp side is just awkard but I can return it ok. They are short pimples but they do have some disruptive effect, not sure which ones, will check later.

Nobody else can impart that much spin. I can ask the trainer/coach on thursday if he can do multiball or set up robot for extreme back spin.

Looking at a teammate of mine who actually played a close match (3-2 in games, 11-9 lost in last game) you can actually loop her backspin balls but he has a fantastic spinny loop I dont possess. I think it's ultimately my best bet to practice. But it's so hard when you don't get that kind of spin against you too often.
I'm just at a loss what do with my pimple side. I tried pushing short, pushing aggresive, sort of a 'fake' loop. Nothing seems to be effective. Lifting least of all (then she just kills it)

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Setup 'slow counter': Dr. Neubauer Barricade DEF / Yasaka Rakza 7 1.8 mm / Spinlord Blitzschlag OX
2nd setup 'fast deception': Donic Defplay Senso / Yasaka Rakza 7 2.2 mm / Grass D-Tecs OX


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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 00:35 
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Look into the LP "mudflap" attack, promoted by players like Dr Neubauer in his DVD training videos and more recently used in high-level competition by Zhang Guochi: https://youtu.be/CikWCfYsGew

It's simple to do on short- and mid-length backspin balls, and very effective when directed at a far corner or elbow. Search this site for the word "mudflap" for notes I've made over the years in other threads, particularly about the suitability of some LPs over others for this stroke. GD Talon OX works well for the mudflap, iirc, but not all LPs do!


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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 01:34 
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+1 on 'mudflap'. Also, see Jian Li's videos and how he handles serve receive. Backspin is a pretty appealing scenario for LP OX, you can be quite aggressive and creative.

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 03:13 
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Yeah, actually on most backspin serves and balls I am aggresive, but when it's extreme I don't lift it enough and hit the net. I'll look up the technique and try it out :)

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Setup 'slow counter': Dr. Neubauer Barricade DEF / Yasaka Rakza 7 1.8 mm / Spinlord Blitzschlag OX
2nd setup 'fast deception': Donic Defplay Senso / Yasaka Rakza 7 2.2 mm / Grass D-Tecs OX


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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 03:50 
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Nebur wrote:
Yeah, actually on most backspin serves and balls I am aggresive, but when it's extreme I don't lift it enough and hit the net. I'll look up the technique and try it out :)
The mudflap has nothing to do with lifting in the classic loop-a-chop way since you're not trying to impart spin by brushing your rubber past the ball. Rather, you're relying on the spin reversing effect of the LP in combination with aggressively flat-hitting (mud-flapping) the approaching ball out and slightly up. The opponent's backspin causes the ball to dive off your LP but not into the net; well over the net where the ball is then a fast-moving topspin that usually catches the sender off guard. EDIT: I'll add that the name 'mudflap' comes from the fact that the handle is held near the 12:00 position to allow the blade to reliably swing upward under the ball and produce the shot. I suspect LP pip alignment (i.e. vertical vs horizontal) has a lot to do with this, and is also the reason why this stroke works great with some LPs and not at all with others.


Last edited by nathanso on 13 Jan 2019, 03:06, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 10:29 
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This looks a lot like a "gorilla is being turned into king Kong situation."

If these are better players they are better players. It takes time practicing and playing against better players to beat them or adjust to them.

The "trick" is that you aren't accepting that you need to do something that is outside your comfort zone because you can't practice enough to adjust to it.

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 11:18 
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Looks like what most people call a "bump".

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2019, 15:12 
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Yep.... I've been struggling with the exact same issue, as described by the OP....Infact, now, a lot of players use extreme backspin as a strategy to keep me quiet, and win against me....

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2019, 18:46 
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When I was playing the same style with LP on sponge I also had a few opponents with tons of back spin.

Learn to place the ball to opponents body/elbow to avoid heavy back spin.

Twiddle and use inverted to return heavy back spin on BH. This sounds contraproductive but it may actually help a lot.

Opend the bat a lot more when hitting against back spin both BH and FH. Loop against back spin can be done more like a flip where you don’t add any spin yourself. With LP you can do the mudflap or other strokes but use more force and minimize the contact time, or the ball dives to the net.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2019, 22:40 
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A good Coaching source for inverted long pips players. Watch her practice partner in the video how to play vs long pips.

Free detailed step by step coaching videos available at:

YouTube yangyang TT

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC10OPV ... 1a9lW5r4Sg

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PostPosted: 12 Jan 2019, 08:43 
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Nebur wrote:
So, this is a problem I only have with high level players (1st class and higher) in the dutch regional league who play with a lot of backspin. And not your regular backspin, but a lot, consistently.

I play a modern defensive style with blocking/pushing with my backhand (LP) and whenever I get the chance I loop around with FH (topspin or topspin/smash). Occasionally I will attack the odd backspin / no spin ball with my LP side but not much.

There's 1 femaly player at the club who's been multiple club champion and I have absolutely no chance against. She plays inverted on her FH and short pips on her bh. She plays every stroke on the FH with extreme backspin. No matter what I reverse back. The backspin is so strong I can't loop it with my FH, my topspin is just not extreme enough to counter it. And with my pimple side I either push it in the net, or after 2/3 low shoves I pop it up high and she attacks (either bh / fh). And her placement is so extremely good I can't counter her attack (most of time it's out of reach).

Other example. I had to play a match as substitute for a regular player in the 1st class. He was a very allround player and I could match him in the rallies. But ultimately I lost the match due to his extreme backspin service. I'd usually push aggresively but then he'd easily loop around with his FH and kill it. And if I tried to return it short he'd flip it, or give another exteme backspin push.

Main theme of the story, all these players use the reversal well to attack/kill me next shot, or force me into pushing it into the net. What should I focus on to fix this problem?

Strange thing is I do better against even higher rated players who play an open game or who play allround/defensive but with less backspin. Extreme backspin is just the weak point of my game and I can't really practice it because I don't train enough against that type of spin.. I wish there was some kind of trick or strategy I'm missing here


I have long pips also, palio ck53a1. When people play backspin I do an attacking shot with them. If you watch the "Zhang Guochi videos on OOAK you can see him doing a weird attacking shot with his long pips also. If your opponent pushes short, once you get used to the shot you can easily do it. With deeper pushes it can be harder and when you do it against a deeper push the ball might be easier to be attacked unless you have good power i guess. But yeah even if you can keep pushes with pips low, I would still consider this attacking shot to change up game.


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PostPosted: 12 Jan 2019, 18:52 
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@Nebur
Yes, practicing is definitely your best bet, and it will help you against other players as well. Did you make use of one of these special trainings with S. Sauer or E. Timina yet?
Back to the strong backspin-player: I suppose you're speaking of Susanne? The strokes with strong underspin often go longline or cross to the edges and are quite sharp and fast?

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PostPosted: 13 Jan 2019, 03:30 
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Red wrote:
@Nebur
Yes, practicing is definitely your best bet, and it will help you against other players as well. Did you make use of one of these special trainings with S. Sauer or E. Timina yet?
Back to the strong backspin-player: I suppose you're speaking of Susanne? The strokes with strong underspin often go longline or cross to the edges and are quite sharp and fast?
Marlie... But Susanne is also hard for me. I did try the 'chicken feet' technique a couple times today at the Limburg championships and managed to win the 3d class to my own surprise. It was a very effective technique especially when dealing with extreme backspin to my fh (which i played with bh). Hope I can test it soon again

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ONEPLUS A6003 met Tapatalk

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Setup 'slow counter': Dr. Neubauer Barricade DEF / Yasaka Rakza 7 1.8 mm / Spinlord Blitzschlag OX
2nd setup 'fast deception': Donic Defplay Senso / Yasaka Rakza 7 2.2 mm / Grass D-Tecs OX


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