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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2014, 03:16 
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Hi I am a Modern defender, and are currently using :

Joo Sae Hyuk
Tenergy 05 2.1
Globe 979 0,6

When the opponent loops and i chop and the opponent then pushes the ball back - which shot should I play now ?
I am offen not in perfect balance, since I have to rush into the table from behind when this occurs, should I :

-attack
-scoob / float shot
-push / chop
- " loop"

I am really unsure how to proceed..

My chopping game has devoloped really well, but am often faced with this dilemma :envy:
my game would really develop fast if I could put pressure on the opponent after their push shot..

Soren

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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2014, 05:52 
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Hej Soren,

I play the same blade with the same Tenergy (and Talon ox).
The stroke I play in this sequence (pushing return on my loaded LP chops) depends on the type/skill of my opponent. If he is a good looper I prefer to twiddle to my Tenergy and play a pushing stroke. As you might know yourself the amount of backspin which can be generated by the Tenergy is massive. Often I play this push to the opponents forehand on purpose to enforce them to try looping my backspin :devil:
This stroke can be played even when the ball is already going down (so no rush), just make sure the Tenergy has a wide open angle.
This will prevent another fast loop. Best case you get a slow loop with much topspin which is perfect for another lp chop.
If the opponent does respond my push with another push I typically push again with the LP's which will give them a more 'dead ball'.

For non-all-out attackers other strategies are possible as a 'weaker' return is not killed directly.

Note that the single reason I play the Tenergy rubber is for the unmatched level op backspin which can be generated. If it was for the attacking capabilities I would choose a different (bit lower) rubber.

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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2014, 13:22 
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You don't really have to attack to put pressure on opponent... placement and change of pace/spin can achieve that. If he wants it and is early setup for FH, cut it to his crossover or BH.

You can also go with spin variation on either surface. Like Gybe said, an unexpectedly heavy underspin is an easy point for a defender vs an over-attack happy and not so ready attacker. Just as well, what looks to be heavy spin and is not can be just as error inducing as well for the same type or the cautious one who just read it wrong and decided to attack. Like Gybe said, you place those balls deep right in his power zone and dare them to loop it. When they read the spin wrong and loop it in net (too heavy), then long off end (light spin), they really scratch their heads and speed dial their psychotherapist.

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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2014, 13:37 
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In this situation, I will either loop their backspin shot (probably my least favorite option), twiddle and push heavy with my inverted to their pocket or wide angle, depending upon how they are positioned (2nd least favorite option), or (this is my favorite) punch block their back spin shot fast, low, and deep to their pocket or to a wide angle, and look to attack their weak return. I almost always choose the pocket (or "seam" or "elbow" as some people call it) option as far as placement, but again, it depends upon my opponents footwork (or lack thereof). If he is a bit slow, then attacking wide angles is a greater possibility.

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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2014, 17:47 
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I think there is the possibility to attack and the possibility to push.
This depends on your position to the ball. If you can, you should attack from my point of view. Therefore you need to see early that your opponent pushes instead of attacking and move fast to the table. Of course it is more difficult to attack a ball that is pushed deep in your backhand than a ball in forehand or middle.
Maybe you should think about pushing with Pimples and inverted rubber. I dont know if you can create own backspin with your pimples. If not, this makes it really easy for the opponent to push and attack the next ball fast.

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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2014, 01:47 
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If it came from their forehand, I like to return to their backhand or at least cram their forehand. They are probably up at the table so I want my return to hit way at the back.

Best options for me are a full chop with the pips, aggressive push/block or attack smack with the pips. Sometimes I hop over and use the FH to attack or big chop, but that is dangerous because it leaves me more open wide on that side.

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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2014, 11:43 
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T05 is stating that he is in poor balance after his shot in this case... so it makes zero sense to tell him to attack here, it is just rushing to failure.

It is also difficult to make a quality defensive or passing connecting shot in this situation as well, but not nearly the suicide mission it is to blindly attack that ball there given the circumstances.

Even at the pro level, when a player can barely get to a ball on his BH wing, he makes an attempt to chop heavy, but makes a float ball. Such a ball is often mis-read at pro level for an error on the attack.

At least the fake chop give you time to get back on balance and in position to deal with whatever opponent wants to do.

it is not emphasized enough in coaching and forums such passing shots with the sole purpose of getting back into the point to continue to fight, whether it is to get back into attack or defense.

I am 2 wing attacking monster wannabe and I use that shot a LOT when I attack and oppont blocks to wide BH and about all I can do is make a cross-over step and lunge for what looks like a desperation heavy chop, which is really a float. Sometimes that shot gets me higher percentage of points (or leads to it) than some of my macho offensive shots.

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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2014, 17:56 
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I play with fast blade + dtecs ox and I try to give controlled "punch" to the back of the ball. With my equipment it is quite safe shot and I don't have problems with it. The result is low, slightly top spinning push, that is not too easy to attack hard. The controlled punch needs just right amount of force, but not much special skills. It's a decent return with good percentage of success, and perfect balance is not required.

With sponged pips and maybe slower equipment it might be more difficult to replicate the "punch".


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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2014, 20:41 
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Der_Echte wrote:
I am 2 wing attacking monster wannabe and I use that shot a LOT when I attack and oppont blocks to wide BH and about all I can do is make a cross-over step and lunge for what looks like a desperation heavy chop, which is really a float. Sometimes that shot gets me higher percentage of points (or leads to it) than some of my macho offensive shots.


There is one big difference. You play a fake chop after a block.
I talked about the ball after the opponent pushes.

It seems to me that "Tenergy05fx" has problems with his forward and backward movements, so this is the most important thing to practise. There are some easy exercises like 1-2 Chops, then push, and again ... can be only on one side or whole table etc.
It doesnt matter if you want to play push or loop, if you dont have the right position to the ball you cannot play the stroke well.

I recommended to attack, when the position to the ball is right. This is a thing to practise. Of course you shouldn't attack when you are not in balance or too far away / too close to the ball. Please don't misinterpret my statement as "attacking all the time".

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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2014, 23:34 
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I'm assuming the opponent's push here is a short one which is troubling due to the distance T05 is from the table and the lack of "air" time the short pushed ball has to reach it. Of course there are all sorts of factors to be considered as no two bals are likely to be exactly the same (for position, height, spin etc), but the first thing is obviously to increase awareness/anticipation of the opponents response (because obviously if you race in expecting a short ball each time he will stitch you up with a long one). So assuming you are reaching the ball (and probably lunging to some degree) then what to do so you don't pop it up for his easy putaway. I think here angles and placement are your best weapons. Having some idea of the spin on the ball so you know how it will come off your pips is important to begin with in terms of how you "touch" it. I use the word touch because you usually won't be "hitting" it so much as "guiding the ball with touch" as to where you want it to go. Whether that be deep and wide, short and wide or something in between is going to depend on the opponents position and your knowledge already gathered (you need to build this during the match, but the earlier you can the better) of their weaker places on the table. Developing this touch skill requires you to really have a wrist movement that's something like a swivel that can be changed in direction (from far right to far left) right up to the point of contact...and then combine this with the "weight" you put into the touch shot...again depending on what spin is on the ball and where you want it to land. Always bearing in mind that "lower is generally better". The best weapon you can have is to have the opponent A. believe you are going left and you go right (or vice-versa) and then getting it there quickly, B. build total doubt in his mind about where you will go every time this happens and C. keeping him off balance more than you are by mixing it up, which often will mean not going left or right, but to his pocket or his weakest return area.

Often when you meet opponents who seem to have no real weaknesses, the best way to play them is to simply keep them moving around as much as possible to either wear them out or force them to play reaching shots, which most people will eventually mis-handle.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2014, 02:28 
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I don't pretend to know much compared to the others replying, but something this discussion makes me notice about how I play is that if I do the big backhand chop and just wait there way far back, it gives my opponent the easy opportunity to cause me more trouble by pushing short or looping wide to my forehand side if he can get it there.

I think what I should be doing, is immediately after the chop, before the ball even gets to the other side, I need to take a step in and towards center, so that if he does push, I am only half as far away, and it will be much easier to get to, and as a result I will have better options than if I am trying to dive in for the ball at the last second. I can always take the step out and away again to chop if he loops again to my backhand, but the key is that I have to be set and ready to move in any direction when he swings at the ball.

I think its just that I get lazy and just stand there out in left field waiting for them to loop it at me again. I still like the idea of attacking the push when it looks like it has decent probability of landing somewhere they cant easily attack from. The push is my opportunity to change the tide and make the attacker cringe with some real ugly ball streaking at him. For me, its either that, the big pips chop, which is probably fake, but does work if not used all the time, or if I see him waiting over at the forehand corner for me to chop, I hop around and attack down his backhand line with my forehand, which I have also had a couple big wins from. Maybe that works because I'm lefty...

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2014, 05:40 
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Fab wrote:
Der_Echte wrote:
I am 2 wing attacking monster wannabe and I use that shot a LOT when I attack and oppont blocks to wide BH and about all I can do is make a cross-over step and lunge for what looks like a desperation heavy chop, which is really a float. Sometimes that shot gets me higher percentage of points (or leads to it) than some of my macho offensive shots.


There is one big difference. You play a fake chop after a block.
I talked about the ball after the opponent pushes.

It seems to me that "Tenergy05fx" has problems with his forward and backward movements, so this is the most important thing to practise. There are some easy exercises like 1-2 Chops, then push, and again ... can be only on one side or whole table etc.
It doesnt matter if you want to play push or loop, if you dont have the right position to the ball you cannot play the stroke well.

I recommended to attack, when the position to the ball is right. This is a thing to practise. Of course you shouldn't attack when you are not in balance or too far away / too close to the ball. Please don't misinterpret my statement as "attacking all the time".

this is what I would have said, Players will often loop 1 then drop one over against a chopper, so get a mate to help you out, in most cases attack is best option as you have to come forward and to your right and if not attacking then deep to backhand or something tricky

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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2014, 03:09 
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I tried practicing this last night. I was hitting with a looper and he was pushing every other ball.

He would loop, I chop with my BH, he then pushed to my BH

I had to concentrate and remember to reposition a bit closer towards center after each chop so there was no easy place to attack to.

The full chop with the pips worked well. He usually would try to loop and go off the back. But if I did that too much he started adjusting to it and was able to hit it hard at me and I was up too close to chop. I also tried looping them with the pips but that only worked if he was out of position and I could get it to a hard to reach spot.

So then I tried smacking the push. At first it wasn't landing, but in a few min I got the hang of it and was able to really smack it hard with my 0X pips. He didn't like that at all and only got 1 of those back the whole time. Then I started mixing it up, doing all 3, but after a few min he was getting frustrated and didn't want to hit with me anymore.

My suspicion is that his mentors have told him to push every other ball, and they are expecting me to push it back so he can attack.

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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2014, 23:45 
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Good post Southpaw.

(attacker's way of thinking) Simply gotta HATE defenders who do not do what they are told !!!

Haha, it is the possibility of sudden/decisive attack that makes defenders apply even more pressure on attackers without blindly attacking everything.

Playing against a defender who can bring back balls and who doesn't finish the cuts or short, but high balls off the chop, BUT... it is another to play vs a defenders who can attack those balls you thought were safe. Even more a monster are those modern defender types who can attack your topspins suddenly.

Someone tell the Old Man Southpaw he is stirring it up too much !!

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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2014, 01:35 
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Thanks, Der Etche,

It occurred to me when reading your post, that next time I practice with him, I will ASK how I'm SUPPOSED to return the push, and then I'll be nice and do that for a while so I remember it, and remember it well enough to BE SURE NOT to do that in a game! I might make it LOOK like that shot, but with a different spin that makes it nasty if I can come up with a way.

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