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 Post subject: Playing against pushers
PostPosted: 08 May 2016, 16:40 
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Hey guys. So I've been playing with long pimple OX rubber on my backhand for 2 months now. I mainly play and practise with my coach. So no problem with practising multiball and single ball drills. The problem is playing with pushers. The top player at my school adapts his playing style to his opponent. He used to beat me (although it was always a close match) when I was a two winged looper. After switching to LPs and improving my forehand, I rekt him 3-0 without backing from the table mostly with my forehand and with a few LP hits. After a while we played another match and I was up 2-0. Then he suddenly started pushing long to my backhand. I pushed with my LPs but after returning two or so pushes my push went to the net. Basically he didn't let me use my forehand much. So against such players what should I do? Should I try to play an allcourt forehand game? But I think that would make me predictable. Or is there any way I can improve my pushing with LPs? Chopping far from the table is also not an option because he doesn't have a consistent looping game and I'm still far from using it properly in a game.

Another thing I wanted to know is attacking with LPs. I found that using a normal inverted like stroke with the LPs was enough to attack normal balls. But I saw a video where Leatherback was playing with Sun Jianfei, he used a more flat and forward stroke. I think this type of strokes contain backspin? I use it when returning long and fast no spin serves but never tried it on a normal return. Some elaboration on how this stroke works would be appreciated. Also is my method of returning long and fast no spin serves alright? Or is there something else I should learn? I'd appreciate it if you guys would help me out :)

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PostPosted: 08 May 2016, 21:43 
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At lower levels are lot pushers that push to your BH. You just have to be more consistent.

I use the "roll", "lift" or "bumb" against underspin pushers, so I return top spin. I don't usually push (like inverted push), because it's not very consistent shot with ox pips.

Against long serves and plays like that it's useful to be able the chop the ball. Taking fast balls of the bounce is ofteb too risky strategy.


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PostPosted: 08 May 2016, 22:44 
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No spin is always hard to deal with when playing LP.

My general approach is to chop it as long as I can to give myself time to back up and play my game.

You have to understand what is is you are trying to accomplish with your shot. If you wish to give yourself more time like myself you need to improve your pushing against all types of spin.

If you want to initiate an attack you need to be able to attack against all types of spin.

The shot you watched me do is against back spin. Against top spin and no spin the shot is different, it requires the timing to be at the highest point above the net. You must fit the correct bat angle and hit through the ball with a light follow through. Do not brush or loop the ball as this will subtract speed from the equation.

If you are looking for something that will win you points outright look elsewhere. Either option is a good option but consistency is key. If he does this 11 times on a game you must be able to do your shot 11 times.

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PostPosted: 08 May 2016, 22:45 
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Also. When pushing with LP you must forget about the spin. It's not going to have any. You must strive for depth and then height over the net.

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PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 01:39 
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Korean women over 40, more than 1/2 of them have a bat like yours (but with OFF+ blade) and play a simple game, but effective. The will punch with their OX any backspin. Of course, it is much easier to do this shot against an underspin ball with a first bounce of only 1/2 depth. A push landing near the endline gives a smaller margin of error trying to punch. You could adjust by using less power to make the shot more consistent. A deep heavy push can be tricky to punch, but it can be done.

Like said already, the important thing is to be able to handle this shot without giving up a point directly, or giving up an easy high percentage power shot. This requires you to adapt the shot to keep it consistent. try for less power on the punch and aim for crossover point and try to land it as deep and as low as you can while keeping the shot consistent. If you can be able to do this, you will increase your chances for errors from opponent or you will get much better chances to attack or keep up pressure.

The Korean OX LP ladies practice a minimum of an hour a day to address the classic deep dead ball near endline tactic. To many of these ladies who practice it, the long/deep dead ball doesn't trouble them. They just loosen their grip a little, take the ball off the bounce, and impact it only hard enough to land it deep near endline without missing. In practice, they can BH OX hit to each other 50 times without missing - and each shot is medium fast dead ball landing within inches of endline. This is a good level of consistency that would profit you.

It is all about like LB sez, finding a way to cope with all kind of spins that come at you without giving up points, then turning that chance into your chance.

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PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 04:43 
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Der_Echte wrote:
Korean women over 40, more than 1/2 of them have a bat like yours (but with OFF+ blade) and play a simple game, but effective. The will punch with their OX any backspin. Of course, it is much easier to do this shot against an underspin ball with a first bounce of only 1/2 depth. A push landing near the endline gives a smaller margin of error trying to punch. You could adjust by using less power to make the shot more consistent. A deep heavy push can be tricky to punch, but it can be done.

Like said already, the important thing is to be able to handle this shot without giving up a point directly, or giving up an easy high percentage power shot. This requires you to adapt the shot to keep it consistent. try for less power on the punch and aim for crossover point and try to land it as deep and as low as you can while keeping the shot consistent. If you can be able to do this, you will increase your chances for errors from opponent or you will get much better chances to attack or keep up pressure.

The Korean OX LP ladies practice a minimum of an hour a day to address the classic deep dead ball near endline tactic. To many of these ladies who practice it, the long/deep dead ball doesn't trouble them. They just loosen their grip a little, take the ball off the bounce, and impact it only hard enough to land it deep near endline without missing. In practice, they can BH OX hit to each other 50 times without missing - and each shot is medium fast dead ball landing within inches of endline. This is a good level of consistency that would profit you.

It is all about like LB sez, finding a way to cope with all kind of spins that come at you without giving up points, then turning that chance into your chance.

Thank you for your insight :) What do you exactly mean by the punch? Is it using your wrist and brushing over the ball? I think learning this return against long pushes would greatly make it easier for me to play against players like him.

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PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 04:45 
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Roy wrote:
At lower levels are lot pushers that push to your BH. You just have to be more consistent.

I use the "roll", "lift" or "bumb" against underspin pushers, so I return top spin. I don't usually push (like inverted push), because it's not very consistent shot with ox pips.

Against long serves and plays like that it's useful to be able the chop the ball. Taking fast balls of the bounce is ofteb too risky strategy.

Would you plesse elaborate on the roll and bumb? I think that the lift is where you brush the ball in an upward motion so that the underspin becomes topspin in the opponents side.

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PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 04:52 
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leatherback wrote:
No spin is always hard to deal with when playing LP.

My general approach is to chop it as long as I can to give myself time to back up and play my game.

You have to understand what is is you are trying to accomplish with your shot. If you wish to give yourself more time like myself you need to improve your pushing against all types of spin.

If you want to initiate an attack you need to be able to attack against all types of spin.

The shot you watched me do is against back spin. Against top spin and no spin the shot is different, it requires the timing to be at the highest point above the net. You must fit the correct bat angle and hit through the ball with a light follow through. Do not brush or loop the ball as this will subtract speed from the equation.

If you are looking for something that will win you points outright look elsewhere. Either option is a good option but consistency is key. If he does this 11 times on a game you must be able to do your shot 11 times.
Thanks for replying Leatherback!
I tried chopping a long no spin serve. Half of the time it went to the net and it's also hard to place the ball. Compared to that having a flat, forward and slow stroke seems much easier to return and place the ball.
I guess I'll have to learn to both attack and give myself sometime to get in a chopping rally. To give it more variation.
Against backspin don't you usually lift the ball with an upward motion? And against no spin and topspin I guess you can only use a flat and forward stroke when the ball is above net height. But looping the ball like inverted seem to give me a higher percentage of putting the ball in the table. Should I stop? It certainly is slow but my motion is so fast the opponent is often caught offguard and cannot block or hit it properly. Of course a more higher level opponent can adjust quickly, like my coach.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

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PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 05:04 
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Roy wrote:
At lower levels are lot pushers that push to your BH. You just have to be more consistent.

I use the "roll", "lift" or "bumb" against underspin pushers, so I return top spin. I don't usually push (like inverted push), because it's not very consistent shot with ox pips.

Against long serves and plays like that it's useful to be able the chop the ball. Taking fast balls of the bounce is ofteb too risky strategy.

Also I've found that having a slow flat and forward stroke against long no spin serves give me a better chance at returning than chopping like I do with a loop.

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PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 06:46 
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infernowasif34 wrote:
leatherback wrote:
No spin is always hard to deal with when playing LP.

My general approach is to chop it as long as I can to give myself time to back up and play my game.

You have to understand what is is you are trying to accomplish with your shot. If you wish to give yourself more time like myself you need to improve your pushing against all types of spin.

If you want to initiate an attack you need to be able to attack against all types of spin.

The shot you watched me do is against back spin. Against top spin and no spin the shot is different, it requires the timing to be at the highest point above the net. You must fit the correct bat angle and hit through the ball with a light follow through. Do not brush or loop the ball as this will subtract speed from the equation.

If you are looking for something that will win you points outright look elsewhere. Either option is a good option but consistency is key. If he does this 11 times on a game you must be able to do your shot 11 times.
Thanks for replying Leatherback!
I tried chopping a long no spin serve. Half of the time it went to the net and it's also hard to place the ball. Compared to that having a flat, forward and slow stroke seems much easier to return and place the ball.
I guess I'll have to learn to both attack and give myself sometime to get in a chopping rally. To give it more variation.
Against backspin don't you usually lift the ball with an upward motion? And against no spin and topspin I guess you can only use a flat and forward stroke when the ball is above net height. But looping the ball like inverted seem to give me a higher percentage of putting the ball in the table. Should I stop? It certainly is slow but my motion is so fast the opponent is often caught offguard and cannot block or hit it properly. Of course a more higher level opponent can adjust quickly, like my coach.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

If it works then it is good! It is always good to have options. But what are you going to do when your opponent gets used to it?

Also. Your opponent will get used to every shot you make. So what then?

This is why options are good.

An attacking game with pips on the backhand relays on a good forehand. Pips may win you points at the beginning. But as you improve your shots are meant to set up your forehand.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 12:31 
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At the higher levels, there are very few players who can get away without the threat of a legit FH attack, even if it is occasion.

In Korea, you wont get far in Div 2 city or above without a FH, for USA it is around 2000, but there are exceptions.

I think LB has it spot on for the strategic goals towards the future if the OP wants to crack into higher levels down the road.

The question of the PUNCH shot. The Korean ladies who use OX will serve underspin, get you to push underspin to their BH or middle, then use the PUNCH on OX BH to send back a medium fast to fast light to medium topspin ball, usually to the open FH corner for a winner. The PUNCH is a very forward very solid impact shot with an open blade face and pretty much a locked wrist. They simply are down behind the ball and extend their upper arm and lower arm forward to meet the ball solidly. They are using the double hinge of their Shoulder and Elbow.

The higher level OX players (very few of them) have learned how to use the wrist for a conventional shakehand BH with wrist that is tougher to read and the shot can be medium fast, but these are very rare players in Korea. There are two of them in eh Maryland DC are around or above 2000 level, they both have a strong pressure with their BH OX (or .5 mm) and the very real threat of a strong FH.

This PUNCH is a very effective shot at U1800 USATT and below, and it works well vs higher levels not used to this. However, as LB is advocating, the attack with OX is not a very consistent point winner at higher levels. It has a place and can win some points directly or from manipulating the spin (like killing it), but the higher levels the FH is the point winning shot for OX players. The use of other OX LP shots on BH to get or maintain the advantage in a rally is very useful and ANY OX LP shot that gives you options and keeps you in the point or sets you up to take it over and win definitely has its place.

There is a Korean OX LP coach in Yong-In south of Seoul who is famous in Korea for training players who want to use OX LP in Korea. He has a HUGE vault of videos where he explains in Korean many principles, then gives training. You can see which shots he is training his players. It is a Korea website and he had those vids hidden to anyone not a member of his Daum Cafe site, but on a visit to his club when I lived in Korea, I convinced him to open up the vault to TT forumers interested in OX LP.

This is his website.

http://cafe.daum.net/youngintt

If you look at the menu on the left, there is an English wrd "LONG PIMPLES" if you click on that, it will take you to his OX LP video vault.

Here is a vid of a lady doing a punch.

http://cafe.daum.net/_c21_/bbs_read?grpid=173yS&mgrpid=&fldid=LEDP&page=3&prev_page=2&firstbbsdepth=0001rzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&lastbbsdepth=0001Yzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&contentval=0001Ezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&datanum=76&listnum=20

Here is a vid where he is feeding a player (a typical 40-50 yr old Korean lacy) underspin and she is making a topspin drive from it. In this vid, she is beginning to depart from the punch and use more elbow and wrist snap to add power to the shot.

If the link doesn't work (maybe it needs a new session ID, just go to page 2 of his vault and click on vid #72 dated 12.02.27 the Korean says Basic Shakehand OX LP BH stroke part 62 Part 1.

http://cafe.daum.net/_c21_/bbs_read?grpid=173yS&mgrpid=&fldid=LEDP&page=4&prev_page=3&firstbbsdepth=0001Xzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&lastbbsdepth=0001Ezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&contentval=0001Azzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&datanum=72&listnum=20

The lady in this vid is likely on of the typical 1750-1800 level players at that club. They play over 2000 level vs a conventional attacker who cannot flip serves or make heavy slow topspin. You push or play dead to them, any one of them will eat you alive.

Either way, click on a lot of his vids, he is showing every possible way to handle stuff with OX LP, many of his vids are grouped together and he takes 5-7 vids to teach one kind of shot.

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PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 13:08 
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A combination vid of some of the better level, they still miss, but they all got a FH... and they all are ready to use it.

http://cafe.daum.net/_c21_/bbs_read?grpid=173yS&mgrpid=&fldid=LEDP&page=2&prev_page=3&firstbbsdepth=0001Xzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&lastbbsdepth=0001Ezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&contentval=0001azzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&datanum=98&listnum=20

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PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 15:15 
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leatherback wrote:
infernowasif34 wrote:
leatherback wrote:
No spin is always hard to deal with when playing LP.

My general approach is to chop it as long as I can to give myself time to back up and play my game.

You have to understand what is is you are trying to accomplish with your shot. If you wish to give yourself more time like myself you need to improve your pushing against all types of spin.

If you want to initiate an attack you need to be able to attack against all types of spin.

The shot you watched me do is against back spin. Against top spin and no spin the shot is different, it requires the timing to be at the highest point above the net. You must fit the correct bat angle and hit through the ball with a light follow through. Do not brush or loop the ball as this will subtract speed from the equation.

If you are looking for something that will win you points outright look elsewhere. Either option is a good option but consistency is key. If he does this 11 times on a game you must be able to do your shot 11 times.
Thanks for replying Leatherback!
I tried chopping a long no spin serve. Half of the time it went to the net and it's also hard to place the ball. Compared to that having a flat, forward and slow stroke seems much easier to return and place the ball.
I guess I'll have to learn to both attack and give myself sometime to get in a chopping rally. To give it more variation.
Against backspin don't you usually lift the ball with an upward motion? And against no spin and topspin I guess you can only use a flat and forward stroke when the ball is above net height. But looping the ball like inverted seem to give me a higher percentage of putting the ball in the table. Should I stop? It certainly is slow but my motion is so fast the opponent is often caught offguard and cannot block or hit it properly. Of course a more higher level opponent can adjust quickly, like my coach.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

If it works then it is good! It is always good to have options. But what are you going to do when your opponent gets used to it?

Also. Your opponent will get used to every shot you make. So what then?

This is why options are good.

An attacking game with pips on the backhand relays on a good forehand. Pips may win you points at the beginning. But as you improve your shots are meant to set up your forehand.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

Yeah you're right. But well this is only for people who doesn't have a consistent loop. Against legit two winged loopers I plan on chopping :P

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PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 15:21 
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Der_Echte wrote:
At the higher levels, there are very few players who can get away without the threat of a legit FH attack, even if it is occasion.

In Korea, you wont get far in Div 2 city or above without a FH, for USA it is around 2000, but there are exceptions.

I think LB has it spot on for the strategic goals towards the future if the OP wants to crack into higher levels down the road.

The question of the PUNCH shot. The Korean ladies who use OX will serve underspin, get you to push underspin to their BH or middle, then use the PUNCH on OX BH to send back a medium fast to fast light to medium topspin ball, usually to the open FH corner for a winner. The PUNCH is a very forward very solid impact shot with an open blade face and pretty much a locked wrist. They simply are down behind the ball and extend their upper arm and lower arm forward to meet the ball solidly. They are using the double hinge of their Shoulder and Elbow.

The higher level OX players (very few of them) have learned how to use the wrist for a conventional shakehand BH with wrist that is tougher to read and the shot can be medium fast, but these are very rare players in Korea. There are two of them in eh Maryland DC are around or above 2000 level, they both have a strong pressure with their BH OX (or .5 mm) and the very real threat of a strong FH.

This PUNCH is a very effective shot at U1800 USATT and below, and it works well vs higher levels not used to this. However, as LB is advocating, the attack with OX is not a very consistent point winner at higher levels. It has a place and can win some points directly or from manipulating the spin (like killing it), but the higher levels the FH is the point winning shot for OX players. The use of other OX LP shots on BH to get or maintain the advantage in a rally is very useful and ANY OX LP shot that gives you options and keeps you in the point or sets you up to take it over and win definitely has its place.

There is a Korean OX LP coach in Yong-In south of Seoul who is famous in Korea for training players who want to use OX LP in Korea. He has a HUGE vault of videos where he explains in Korean many principles, then gives training. You can see which shots he is training his players. It is a Korea website and he had those vids hidden to anyone not a member of his Daum Cafe site, but on a visit to his club when I lived in Korea, I convinced him to open up the vault to TT forumers interested in OX LP.

This is his website.

http://cafe.daum.net/youngintt

If you look at the menu on the left, there is an English wrd "LONG PIMPLES" if you click on that, it will take you to his OX LP video vault.

Here is a vid of a lady doing a punch.

http://cafe.daum.net/_c21_/bbs_read?grpid=173yS&mgrpid=&fldid=LEDP&page=3&prev_page=2&firstbbsdepth=0001rzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&lastbbsdepth=0001Yzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&contentval=0001Ezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&datanum=76&listnum=20

Here is a vid where he is feeding a player (a typical 40-50 yr old Korean lacy) underspin and she is making a topspin drive from it. In this vid, she is beginning to depart from the punch and use more elbow and wrist snap to add power to the shot.

If the link doesn't work (maybe it needs a new session ID, just go to page 2 of his vault and click on vid #72 dated 12.02.27 the Korean says Basic Shakehand OX LP BH stroke part 62 Part 1.

http://cafe.daum.net/_c21_/bbs_read?grpid=173yS&mgrpid=&fldid=LEDP&page=4&prev_page=3&firstbbsdepth=0001Xzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&lastbbsdepth=0001Ezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&contentval=0001Azzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&datanum=72&listnum=20

The lady in this vid is likely on of the typical 1750-1800 level players at that club. They play over 2000 level vs a conventional attacker who cannot flip serves or make heavy slow topspin. You push or play dead to them, any one of them will eat you alive.

Either way, click on a lot of his vids, he is showing every possible way to handle stuff with OX LP, many of his vids are grouped together and he takes 5-7 vids to teach one kind of shot.

Thanks for giving me so many videos :D I'll have to watch them. I can hit with the LP like a conventional shakehand backhand using my wrist but I will have to learn the punch. Also as I mentioned to Leatherback I'm learning to attack with OX LP to play against pushers. Against higher level two winged loopers I plan on chopping on my backhand far from the table and counterlooping/fishing on my forehand. And again, thank you for giving me so many videos!

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PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 15:23 
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BH: Tsp p1r 1.0-1.3
Der_Echte wrote:

I have a fairly good forehand as I was a two winged looper before. I used to struggle looping pushes and also playing my forehand down the line. But after switching to LPs I realized how crucial they were and I fixed them :)

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