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 Post subject: Throw Angle
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2013, 21:46 
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So, I’ve been comparing my LPs to try and make a decision on what to use long-term. I think the longest I’ve used any sheet was about a month before trying something else…bad, right? Recently I’ve focused on 3 sheets, all fairly different: P4 1.0 (red), P1R 0.5 (black) and DTECS OX (black). For chopping feel I like the P4 best but I can’t return serve at all. Everything goes into the net no matter how hard I push or try to get under the ball. The P1R returns serve decently. I can “stab” or force push any serve and it will go back. Chopping with the P1R is ok...harder feeling. The DTECS is the king of service return. Can push through or block any serve. I actually like the feel of chopping with the DTECS more than P1R but not as much as the P4. What I find most interesting about these 3 LPs is that chopping with P4 results in the lowest throw angle. Why is this? My looping friend has an easier time returning chops from the P1R and DTECS which I also find strange. He says it’s because they have MORE spin than the P4 and that suits his loop stroke. I don’t disagree that the P1R and DTECS produce more spin because my chop stroke isn’t good enough to generate massive spin with the P4 and I think it’s his spin coming back with the P1R and DTECS. I think maybe he has a harder time with the P4 because the throw angle is so low. It really stays low over the net while the P1R and DTECS are about 12 inches over the net. All said, I’m leaning toward sticking with DTECS because service return is so easy and I’m fairly consistent chopping with it. Not too keen on the higher throw angle though. Is there a particular chopping technique or recommendation that would lower the throw angle or is that pretty much a function of the rubber and or sponge?

Thanks!

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Throw Angle
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2013, 01:28 
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The throw is lower because the grip is higher in P4 with 1,0 mm sponge - it is almost like a slow inverted rubber. When you chop the ball digs into the rubber much more on that rubber than on a ox or thin sponge lp. I would recommend you to go with a thinner sponge to start with. Go for P1-r 0,5 mm for a few moths, and then try P4 again. It is easier to learn to chop with a little less grippy lp, but it is easier to hande a more grippy lp when playing close to the table. But your opponents will probably have more troulbes if you use DTecS ox ;) . But being good at chopping is not all about how much spin you gen generate in a chop. It is about varying the spin and making your opponent misread the spin. You can probably never get a setyup that will allow you to chop that heavy back spin that your opponent can't return. At least not if your opponent is any good. You win more with consistency, placement, spin variation and by your own attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Throw Angle
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2013, 01:36 
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If this has been answered elsewhere, please forgive, but could you summarise the variables with LP chopping. You mentioned grippiness, and throwangle. I've also heard mention of length of pips, shape, hardness etc. I guess I'm looking for a map that says:

- Variable 1: has this impact... range <---->, examples of low, mid, high
- Varable 2: .... etc

Do you think we could create such a thing if it doesn't exist? I'm sure it would be a very useful resource.

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 Post subject: Re: Throw Angle
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2013, 14:08 
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Def-attack,

I thought the more grippy the rubber the higher the throw angle? Heavy topspin hitting a grippy surface shoots the ball up like when I'm chopping with my forehand with inverted. It looks this way in videos as well.

I've read other posts where some people dispute the effectiveness of spin variation except at the elite player levels. I can see their point. My main concern is consistency and just making contact and getting the ball back on the table. I'm not sure I would be able to vary the spin in a way that would cause errors with causing myself additional errors :P

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 Post subject: Re: Throw Angle
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2013, 18:31 
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Although I have not yet tried the P-4, I think perhaps the throw is lower because the sponge is so much softer than the p1-r.

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 Post subject: Re: Throw Angle
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2013, 23:26 
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I just steamed the sponge of my P4. I'll test it in a few days and see how the throw compares to the 1.0 sponge version.

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 Post subject: Re: Throw Angle
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2013, 17:12 
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gaijinjoe wrote:
Is there a particular chopping technique or recommendation that would lower the throw angle or is that pretty much a function of the rubber and or sponge?


Hi Joe, I personally think that blade has the biggest influence on LP. After that it's probably the sponge, and only then comes the rubber it self. There can be a huge difference in how pips behave in different sponge thickness.

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 Post subject: Re: Throw Angle
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2013, 17:22 
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gaijinjoe wrote:
Def-attack,

I thought the more grippy the rubber the higher the throw angle? Heavy topspin hitting a grippy surface shoots the ball up like when I'm chopping with my forehand with inverted. It looks this way in videos as well.

I've read other posts where some people dispute the effectiveness of spin variation except at the elite player levels. I can see their point. My main concern is consistency and just making contact and getting the ball back on the table. I'm not sure I would be able to vary the spin in a way that would cause errors with causing myself additional errors :P


I think we mean the same. But with a slow and grippy rubber the ball tends to go lower if you let the ball dig into the pips (like with P4). If you chop with SP you need to open the bat a lot more than with LP. If that is high or low throw I an not sure of (that term is easier to use when talking about looping).

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 Post subject: Re: Throw Angle
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2013, 20:12 
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Ok, so I steamed the 1.0 sponge off my P4 using an iron (which, BTW was pretty easy...thanks OOAK forum!). I tried the P4 OX today opposite DTECS OX. I REALLY like the way the P4 OX felt when chopping. Chops were slower making their way back to the table but I had more control. Also, the throw on chops is still really low compared to the DTECS. Again, the funny thing is that my buddy (penhold inverted looper/smasher) had a much harder time returning my P4 chops vs. my DTECS chops. He keeps insisting it's because the DTECS comes back with more spin which helps his loop (I'm not sure how that works?). He also says the amount of spin is more consistent with the DTECS so he knows what to expect. He said that with the P4 sometimes there's decent spin but sometimes minimal spin, but never the amount of spin the DTECS produces. Apparently the variation in spin is what makes it hard for him, not the amount of spin. For me, it "feels" like I'm producing crazy spin with the P4 but obviously that's not the case. Coincidentally, I found this post by timeout today which seems to fit this situation:

"I'm paraphrasing or quoting, can't remember exactly though, but my club president said no spin balls or floaters are the toughest for high - level attackers to handle. And, if I may add , my chopper buddy says movement aka knuckle effect is significant and, from the perspective of an lp defender, what a good looper wants is SPIN, top or back. These two players are provincial rated and have been playing, since the 70's."

Granted, my buddy is not high level and neither am I :P .

Serve return with the P4 OX was not nearly as easy as with the DTECS but it was a heck of a lot easy than with the P4 1.0. I may just go with this P4 OX for a while!

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 Post subject: Re: Throw Angle
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 13:11 
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y have lower throw with p4 because p4 have softer sponge
and you have better spin with p4 because you opponent not generate enough spin or you not have the righ chop motion with p1r.

p1r have the deadliest backspin i ever see.
if you wanna lower throw with p1r, you need change to faster blade, because if you chop fall in short on opponent square its ez katka for him to finish the poin.

but if you give him back high but long he cant finish


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