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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2015, 06:39 
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Joo Too
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leatherback wrote:
Keep up your defensive mind:)


This quote should be put in a banner on this website and be shown everytime someone visits a webpage on this forum.

This is one of the most common mistakes I read here. Most here don't have a defensive mindset, although they call themselves defenders. No problem at all, but if you're a defender, your defensive mindset is your foundation. You don't win games by outpowering the enemy (although you should be able to if necessary), but by outsmarting them. Your attack is tactically a necessary addition to your defensive strokes and your defensive strokes is tactically a necessary addition to your offensive strokes. An attacker feels pressured if they can't keep up with your consistency or if they feel they can be hit any moment (and they are at that moment out of position, so an attack is lethal), so they feel they need to keep the pressure on or even raise it, resulting in errors on your defensive strokes. That creeps into their mind and there you have it: you just won the game.
No wonders so many brainless attackers are hateful when it comes to defenders: they are not confronted with an outside force they can't handle. They are confronted with an inner shortcoming they can't handle. That's really tough to bear for most people.


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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2015, 10:31 
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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2015, 11:17 
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I am not an LP chopper, but I love to play against attackers with an inflexible game. If I am good enough, I can work out a tactic which causes them to lose. I may be down 0-2, but if I can turn it around and cause them to doubt their primary weapon or "A" game, or deny them it, and they have no "B" game then I can win. If they change tactics then it is up to me to work out a way around that too.

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2015, 22:50 
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:clap: ALEX! This is an amazing response...thanks so much. You've really given me some perspective about my style and about what I may be doing wrong. I think what I may be doing is letting unneccessary outside forces compell me in to doing things that I don't want to do...aka not keeping my defensive mindset.
I have friends who are attackers, coaches who are attackers, and all day I hear the same advice from everyone...including opponents who I play: "Attack more...attack..hit that...that was your point....stop defending...etc etc." It gets hella annoying to have to be bombarded with that. I understand that you aren't suggesting I never attack (even Chtch attacks) but that I need to be mindful of when I attack (as a surprise tactic, against easy balls (High slow loops, bad pushes etc) always keeping in mind that Chopping should always be my go-to stroke to take control of/reset the rally again.

Couple that with the noise from people who hate Pips, and it just gets tiring. I think I'm letting that get to me mentally. Because what you say is spot on, I'm all too often compelled to attack when my instincts tell me to remain consistent with chopping. The other thing is that I am additionally burdened with the fact that I play a Modern Defense style wiht my other setup (less so lately), so that colors my desire to attack.

The only persons who supports this style choice, is my modern defender coach...Wang Qiang Liang (There's a thread here posted by Bogeyhunter of him) who I haven't seen in over 7 months (Too far away, too expensive to see as a non-member of his club). He actually gave me advice to be more defensive and to pick my attacks more sparringly, not because of any lack of looping ability or anything, but because he felt I was much more effective with that style. I've always been drawn to Classic Defense.

Last, you keep hearing people talk about the death of Classical D style and how it's no longer viable with the new ball.

Thanks so much...Lastly, please read my response in the below Quoted text in RED.

leatherback wrote:
Japsican wrote:

Here are my ideas:
1. Just bite the bullet and learn to attack with the thin inverted. That makes the style more Modern D but even Chtchetinine attacks once in a while. (Always learn to attack, most classical defenders of all time can attack, it's just when and how they choose too) I will work on this..earlier in this thread I was belly aching about looping with 1mm thin rubber which is what I have on my forehand. I've done some multiball and this has improved already.

2. Increase my abiltiy to vary the spin. Not sure what else I need here, but I'm sure there's something to work on. Mayble work on variation when under pressure? Not sure. Ideas welcome. (You can't vary spin with the long pips side...well you can...but it's not gonna damage anyone in the long run and you will lose far more points then you gain trying it. The best way to manipulate spin is to give them heavy spin chops ALL the time and then throw in one no spin. That's where you get the pop up or miss)Got it...don't over think the spin manipulation aspect of things...heavy chops most the time and occasiontally throw in a lower spin chop to throw them off.

3. Place chops at more varied angles? I tend to go to the BH corner and then try to go (not always successful) to the FH side. (VERY good idea! Move them around, keep your chops deep and move them, even slow movement is still difficult)Keeping my chops consistently deep is something I'm working on, but consistent depth AND placement is harder for me. I'm always concerned with angle and often don't pay attention to the depth. This is probably something yet again to work on.

4. Side spin chops both BH and FH. Chtch is the bomb at this. (Chtch is bomb at the because he is forced to do it. Yes side spin chops are awesome, however moving your body into the position to do a side spin chop is not awesome and is just frustrating, higher level players side spin chop because people attack their hips or middle forcing them to practice this. Therefore...side spin chop is good, when forced to use it, but don't choose to use it unless forced)Got it...don't use it as a purposeful tactic. You feel as though this is forced up him rather than a tactical choice.

5. Improve short game? Inverted pushing, twiddle, LP pushing. Maybe strong under/weak under variation here with the inverted specifically. (short game is just as if not more important then the long for a chopper which is a very not listened to fact. Every rally starts off with a short game touch and if your pushing isn't as consistent as your chop you are gonna have a bad time because what player would loop at you if they only have to push? Just forget about variation now all you gotta do is remember #1 long #2 low. give yourself time.)You mean long and low on pushes? I typically do that and relatively consistent. That's why I wanted to practice variation.
What I'm not great at are medium to long pushes to wide angles off of chops because I'm running in to do those. I guess...multiball.

Any other ideas what else I might need to be doing?


I commented in brackets on each of you points.

But here are some of my ideas.

First. As a modern defender your number one strength should be consistency.
If they can slow loop all day, then you should be able to chop all day +1 lol.

If they can push all day then you should be able to out push them. This is great advice, one that I knew but don't always follow.
Every shot you should be better at the defending shot.

If someone slows the game down with high arcing loops. Make it slower with nice long slow deep chops and keep it on the table one more then him! If you all are itching to attack then he has actually more of a defensive mind then you do! Not a good thing for a classic defender. Outlasting...must outlast him! Thanks for the reminder here.


He is bothering you with his style. And you as a classic defender should be not bothered by anything. it may be an ugly match...but you need to return it with your skills (chopping) as best you can. This is indeed something that gets to me psychologically. I start to hear the voices of team mates and coaches when the matches get ugly. And they might not even be there, but it's internal. You are so right..I need patience and to remain steadfast.

If you can't, you now know what to practice:)

Another tip would be to make him scared to slow loop. Just counter once, or try to attack once, and he may keep slow looping it...but he will have to think twice every time. Here is exactly what Coach Wang was suggesting to me 7 months ago.

This style of player is a pain for defenders...especially if they play with short pips...

just be consistent, relax because they aren't putting you under pressure and chop consistently. His slow loop is just as hard to do as your chop, and it may look easier so you panic....but it's not. I wish I could practice relaxation. It's interesting, some matches I have NO problems with this, and sometimes I am tense for no apparent reason. It doesn't seem to matter if it's match/practice/tourney or not.

Keep up your defensive mind:) Brilliant...I will try to remember this as an in-match psychological reset when games start to get away from me or when I stray from my philosphy of play for whatever reason


Thanks so much again Alex!

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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2015, 01:21 
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Japsican wrote:
:clap: ALEX! This is an amazing response...thanks so much. You've really given me some perspective about my style and about what I may be doing wrong. I think what I may be doing is letting unneccessary outside forces compell me in to doing things that I don't want to do...aka not keeping my defensive mindset.
I have friends who are attackers, coaches who are attackers, and all day I hear the same advice from everyone...including opponents who I play: "Attack more...attack..hit that...that was your point....stop defending...etc etc." It gets hella annoying to have to be bombarded with that. I understand that you aren't suggesting I never attack (even Chtch attacks) but that I need to be mindful of when I attack (as a surprise tactic, against easy balls (High slow loops, bad pushes etc) always keeping in mind that Chopping should always be my go-to stroke to take control of/reset the rally again.

Couple that with the noise from people who hate Pips, and it just gets tiring. I think I'm letting that get to me mentally. Because what you say is spot on, I'm all too often compelled to attack when my instincts tell me to remain consistent with chopping. The other thing is that I am additionally burdened with the fact that I play a Modern Defense style wiht my other setup (less so lately), so that colors my desire to attack.

The only persons who supports this style choice, is my modern defender coach...Wang Qiang Liang (There's a thread here posted by Bogeyhunter of him) who I haven't seen in over 7 months (Too far away, too expensive to see as a non-member of his club). He actually gave me advice to be more defensive and to pick my attacks more sparringly, not because of any lack of looping ability or anything, but because he felt I was much more effective with that style. I've always been drawn to Classic Defense.

Last, you keep hearing people talk about the death of Classical D style and how it's no longer viable with the new ball.


I feel your pain. :( Not a lot of my colleague TT players are into the defensive style too, but that's because they don't know it or they don't want to know it. If it's the first, then educate them. If it's the second, just say what you think when they say something stupid. I think you're more of tacit person when they say those things to you. Say something back and especially: use some kind of humour. Always nice to see those faces. Don't forget: if they hate defenders or pips, then they have problems with people being different and that's a translation of self insecurity. That or plain stupidity.

You coach is a wise man. :up: Those are your real friends: people who don't want to put their own character/style on you, but who think how you can progress as a person/TT player.

I might have misphrased my own words stating Classical defense is dead. I meant: those who's style only exists of only defending, are not going anywhere.


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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2015, 01:59 
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Lorre wrote:
I feel your pain. :( Not a lot of my colleague TT players are into the defensive style too, but that's because they don't know it or they don't want to know it. If it's the first, then educate them. If it's the second, just say what you think when they say something stupid. I think you're more of tacit person when they say those things to you. Say something back and especially: use some kind of humour. Always nice to see those faces. Don't forget: if they hate defenders or pips, then they have problems with people being different and that's a translation of self insecurity. That or plain stupidity.

You coach is a wise man. :up: Those are your real friends: people who don't want to put their own character/style on you, but who think how you can progress as a person/TT player.

I might have misphrased my own words stating Classical defense is dead. I meant: those who's style only exists of only defending, are not going anywhere.

That's why I like coming to OOAK. It's the only place I can really chat with like-minded people who are defenders and/or attackers who respect the style. Here I feel accepted for my choice vs. at the club where you're criticized.

I'm confrontational, so I usually talk trash to people that disrespect me, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect me.

As for the Classical Def is Dead statement, lol, I was actually not referring to you specifically...just so you know. ;) I was talking about non-defender types who make that statement.

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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2015, 02:33 
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I think Alex's post should be post of the year and I think attackers would learn a lot from it as well.

When I see a defender trying to attack so hard during a consistency rally, I ask them why they chose defense if they want to cream the ball so often...

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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2015, 09:42 
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Japsican wrote:
I'm confrontational, so I usually talk trash to people that disrespect me, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect me.

As for the Classical Def is Dead statement, lol, I was actually not referring to you specifically...just so you know. ;) I was talking about non-defender types who make that statement.


That's good you talk thrash to those kind of people. I'm the opposite, although lately I'm trying to confront them with humour.

I know you weren't referring to me, but I stated it and I wanted to be clear what I meant.


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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2015, 12:54 
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Lorre wrote:
Japsican wrote:
I'm confrontational, so I usually talk trash to people that disrespect me, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect me.

As for the Classical Def is Dead statement, lol, I was actually not referring to you specifically...just so you know. ;) I was talking about non-defender types who make that statement.


That's good you talk thrash to those kind of people. I'm the opposite, although lately I'm trying to confront them with humour.

I know you weren't referring to me, but I stated it and I wanted to be clear what I meant.

Thats probably the mature thing to do. :)

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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2015, 12:56 
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Any other advice guys?

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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2015, 19:03 
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Has anyone mentioned "keeping the spin on"?

One of the things that can really "undo" a defensive game is the low/no spin player. Players who serve float, push by lifting the ball over the net and roll the ball instead of looping. Their entire aim is to get you to put the ball a bit high or generally a bit weak so that they can slap it past you.

In my experience that can be tricky to counter. In my game, I tend to attack those players. For a classical defender, it's a bit harder. One thing I've tried with success in practice is pushing/chopping using my inverted - even on the backhand. If you practice it even a little bit, inverted chopping a "roll" shot is really quite easy and you'll get enough spin on it to force a push. You probably won't win a lot of points with this, but it'll definitely stop your opponent from slapping the ball past you.

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