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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2015, 23:17 
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Hello all,

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I'm speaking about using my Classic Defense setup (aka my Chtchetinine setup below). This setup is Deflplay/P-1R 1.0mm/ TSP Triple Spin chop 1.2mm.

I am looking for strategy and techniques specific to Classical D. I think i've gotten to the point where "just putting the ball on the table" isn't working. I can vary the spin of my chops when not under TOO much pressure, and I twiddle often to my thin inverted rubber.
I came accross a guy who was very relaxed, about USATT 1800, and super consistent. I had less trouble with guys above his level as they were more bothered by underspin. I tried to vary the spin as much as possible. He just slow looped. They were high and arcing. With my modern D setup I'd have hit some of those high loops, but I didn't feel confident to do so with the thin inverted or the LPs (P-1R).

Here are my ideas:
1. Just bite the bullet and learn to attack with the thin inverted. That makes the style more Modern D but even Chtchetinine attacks once in a while.

2. Increase my abiltiy to vary the spin. Not sure what else I need here, but I'm sure there's something to work on. Mayble work on variation when under pressure? Not sure. Ideas welcome.

3. Place chops at more varied angles? I tend to go to the BH corner and then try to go (not always successful) to the FH side.

4. Side spin chops both BH and FH. Chtch is the bomb at this.

5. Improve short game? Inverted pushing, twiddle, LP pushing. Maybe strong under/weak under variation here with the inverted specifically.

Any other ideas what else I might need to be doing?

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Last edited by Japsican on 14 Oct 2015, 00:16, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2015, 23:39 
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Learn to LP chop block those slow high loops .... returns are hard to read with varied spin ....

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 00:14 
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LOOPOVER wrote:
Learn to LP chop block those slow high loops .... returns are hard to read with varied spin ....

Good suggestion. I am able to chop block pretty well, but with 1.0mm sponged P-1R, it's not the easiest. Still, pretty descent. With Dornenglanz OX, I chop block almost everything.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 00:25 
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It depends whats on the high loop... Also what kind of ball you are using...

I think the plastic ball is easier to punch through than the celluloid.
Are you giving him Heavy chop or not much on it back?

If you don't have too much sponge and it's coming towards you middle I think you should step around and kill it. At least once...
The one time that you do will make him less relaxed and make him do the light spin high loop less.

If they are heavy maybe you could try lightly hitting it back with your long pips. Something to experiment with if he keeps giving you high loops.

If you can't do it fine, but if you land one then it changes the game.

Not saying you need to be a modern defender but you said it yourself. Classic defenders hit too. That's actually what makes them dangerous cause they wear you out until you aren't thinking and give them something to smack.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 00:37 
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tabesamis wrote:
It depends whats on the high loop... Also what kind of ball you are using...

I think the plastic ball is easier to punch through than the celluloid.
Are you giving him Heavy chop or not much on it back?

If you don't have too much sponge and it's coming towards you middle I think you should step around and kill it. At least once...
The one time that you do will make him less relaxed and make him do the light spin high loop less.

If they are heavy maybe you could try lightly hitting it back with your long pips. Something to experiment with if he keeps giving you high loops.

If you can't do it fine, but if you land one then it changes the game.

Not saying you need to be a modern defender but you said it yourself. Classic defenders hit too. That's actually what makes them dangerous cause they wear you out until you aren't thinking and give them something to smack.


Yeah...ugh. It is very difficult to drive or loop wiht the 1.2 Triple Spin Chop. But I think i need to work on it anyway...makes me think something like Tacky Chop II in 1.7 would be ideal. I like the TSP better for chopping, but I'm just not getting the loop/hitting part. I also like chopping with tensors. I strangely find it almost as easy to chop with Xiom Omega IV asia (which is similar to T64) as the TSP triple spin. Just different approaches.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 00:49 
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Japsican wrote:
tabesamis wrote:
It depends whats on the high loop... Also what kind of ball you are using...

I think the plastic ball is easier to punch through than the celluloid.
Are you giving him Heavy chop or not much on it back?

If you don't have too much sponge and it's coming towards you middle I think you should step around and kill it. At least once...
The one time that you do will make him less relaxed and make him do the light spin high loop less.

If they are heavy maybe you could try lightly hitting it back with your long pips. Something to experiment with if he keeps giving you high loops.

If you can't do it fine, but if you land one then it changes the game.

Not saying you need to be a modern defender but you said it yourself. Classic defenders hit too. That's actually what makes them dangerous cause they wear you out until you aren't thinking and give them something to smack.


Yeah...ugh. It is very difficult to drive or loop wiht the 1.2 Triple Spin Chop. But I think i need to work on it anyway...makes me think something like Tacky Chop II in 1.7 would be ideal. I like the TSP better for chopping, but I'm just not getting the loop/hitting part. I also like chopping with tensors. I strangely find it almost as easy to chop with Xiom Omega IV asia (which is similar to T64) as the TSP triple spin. Just different approaches.


You have to multiball hitting through a certain kind of topspin with your inverted side so that at least, light topspin/no-spin is not an option when playing you. I know a guy who used to flat hit/loop with Mark V in 1.0mm sponge. You can't tell me that it Triple Spin Chop is so different that it's impossible.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 01:50 
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The latter three points you sum up are good ones to improve to keep playing classical defense. Also try to place fast chops to his elbow. Hit a loose high ball. If he's high looping balls they might be empty so smacking them will work. No looping, Jap: that makes you a modern defender! :lol:

But seriously: you've seen the latest Chtchetinine game against Kojic? He even starts to loop. That might ring a bell classical defense as a style is dead. Not as a variation (I evens een Joo play classical defense against Mizutani), but as a style pur sang (meaning the only you can do is chop, chop, chop).


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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 02:54 
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Lorre wrote:
But seriously: you've seen the latest Chtchetinine game against Kojic? He even starts to loop. That might ring a bell classical defense as a style is dead. Not as a variation (I evens een Joo play classical defense against Mizutani), but as a style pur sang (meaning the only you can do is chop, chop, chop).

Oh..that makes me so sad. I don't like it.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 03:17 
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NextLevel wrote:
Japsican wrote:
tabesamis wrote:
It depends whats on the high loop... Also what kind of ball you are using...

I think the plastic ball is easier to punch through than the celluloid.
Are you giving him Heavy chop or not much on it back?

If you don't have too much sponge and it's coming towards you middle I think you should step around and kill it. At least once...
The one time that you do will make him less relaxed and make him do the light spin high loop less.

If they are heavy maybe you could try lightly hitting it back with your long pips. Something to experiment with if he keeps giving you high loops.

If you can't do it fine, but if you land one then it changes the game.

Not saying you need to be a modern defender but you said it yourself. Classic defenders hit too. That's actually what makes them dangerous cause they wear you out until you aren't thinking and give them something to smack.


Yeah...ugh. It is very difficult to drive or loop wiht the 1.2 Triple Spin Chop. But I think i need to work on it anyway...makes me think something like Tacky Chop II in 1.7 would be ideal. I like the TSP better for chopping, but I'm just not getting the loop/hitting part. I also like chopping with tensors. I strangely find it almost as easy to chop with Xiom Omega IV asia (which is similar to T64) as the TSP triple spin. Just different approaches.


You have to multiball hitting through a certain kind of topspin with your inverted side so that at least, light topspin/no-spin is not an option when playing you. I know a guy who used to flat hit/loop with Mark V in 1.0mm sponge. You can't tell me that it Triple Spin Chop is so different that it's impossible.


Certainly not impossible I know that much. Chtch does it..and I've seen others do it. That's why I said I just need to bite the bullet and work on it. However, I don't want to ruin my feel for looping with my other setup. So, again, I have to choose between styles. I enjoy my Chtch setup more, but I'm more potent with my Ericson setup. Winning vs. fun. Of course, my potency could be linked to my time with the current setup as well. I've played with it much more recently.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 04:17 
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My friend, you over think the importance of feeling for looping! You can brush loop with anything. Drive looping, that's a different story.

Ah, I feel good writing that without any one looking over my back to tell me that I should have recommended an beginner's blade to you...

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 04:36 
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The main mistake choppers make against slow, spinny, high loops is trying to chop too early, e.g., too close to the top of the bounce. If he's slow-looping, you should be able to chop back consistently if you take the ball very late/wait until it's very low. The added bonus of chopping late is that the looper often has a harder time seeing your contact and judging how much spin is on the ball. If you can, return balls that take him out of position. Aim for his crossover point or extreme angles. Or try chopping short or chopping long, if you can. See what he has the most trouble with. There are some players who are great at looping heavy chops because this is what they practice against, but if I chop one high and long to the backhand corner, they underestimate the underspin, come over the ball too much and put it into the net.

The other alternative, as people have said, is to smack the ball at the top of the bounce when you get a particularly high, arching loop. You don't need thick inverted for this. In fact, for hitting/smacking, thin is often just as good if not better because there isn't as much of a sponge there for the ball to sink into. I find that sometimes, twiddling and smacking it with my backhand is even more consistent due to the shorter stroke, but in any event, both forehand and backhand smacks need a bit of practice. You need to close your blade more than you think you do, since it'll go long otherwise. It's largely a question of blade angle and timing, and even one session where you're practicing this technique for 20 minutes or so with someone who can slow loop will do wonders for your consistency.

I would definitely not start counterlooping against this kind of slow loop unless you're very skilled at this because you'll lose a loop-vs.-loop contest against a looper with your equipment/skills.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 04:51 
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NextLevel wrote:
My friend, you over think the importance of feeling for looping! You can brush loop with anything. Drive looping, that's a different story.

Ah, I feel good writing that without any one looking over my back to tell me that I should have recommended an beginner's blade to you...

You mean I shouldn't ditch the LPs and buy a double-sided all blade with Sriver x2 to solve this because I have no idea what I'm doing? Or you? Hahahaha. :rofl:

Yeah, driving vs brush looping. I'll try both in multiball...and against the robot If I can get the damn thing to work for me.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 05:03 
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TraditionalTradesman wrote:
The main mistake choppers make against slow, spinny, high loops is trying to chop too early, e.g., too close to the top of the bounce. If he's slow-looping, you should be able to chop back consistently if you take the ball very late/wait until it's very low. The added bonus of chopping late is that the looper often has a harder time seeing your contact and judging how much spin is on the ball. If you can, return balls that take him out of position. Aim for his crossover point or extreme angles. Or try chopping short or chopping long, if you can. See what he has the most trouble with. There are some players who are great at looping heavy chops because this is what they practice against, but if I chop one high and long to the backhand corner, they underestimate the underspin, come over the ball too much and put it into the net.

The other alternative, as people have said, is to smack the ball at the top of the bounce when you get a particularly high, arching loop. You don't need thick inverted for this. In fact, for hitting/smacking, thin is often just as good if not better because there isn't as much of a sponge there for the ball to sink into. I find that sometimes, twiddling and smacking it with my backhand is even more consistent due to the shorter stroke, but in any event, both forehand and backhand smacks need a bit of practice. You need to close your blade more than you think you do, since it'll go long otherwise. It's largely a question of blade angle and timing, and even one session where you're practicing this technique for 20 minutes or so with someone who can slow loop will do wonders for your consistency.

I would definitely not start counterlooping against this kind of slow loop unless you're very skilled at this because you'll lose a loop-vs.-loop contest against a looper with your equipment/skills.

Good advice and thanks. Taking the ball later...so I typically take the ball at table height or slightly lower. I chopped the ball high a couple of times and he didn't really seem bothered by it...it had heavy under. I also twiddled and gave him inverted and LP chops..

You know, what's funny is I find it hard to find a guy that can slow loop...other than the person I just played. Even my coach who is 2300+ cannot mimic it like I want him to. In a way he's too good for that....too powerful.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 05:07 
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Japsican wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
My friend, you over think the importance of feeling for looping! You can brush loop with anything. Drive looping, that's a different story.

Ah, I feel good writing that without any one looking over my back to tell me that I should have recommended an beginner's blade to you...

You mean I shouldn't ditch the LPs and buy a double-sided all blade with Sriver x2 to solve this because I have no idea what I'm doing? Or you? Hahahaha. :rofl:

Yeah, driving vs brush looping. I'll try both in multiball...and against the robot If I can get the damn thing to work for me.


Your equipment cannot replace your inability to navigate with proper footwork. (DOH!!) As I can tell the main reason you can hit the stroke is that you fail to relax at the point of contact - I can tell this without video because that is what all U3500 players do when they miss shots - fail to relax at the point of contact and overswinging thwarts the result (AND THIS HELPS ME IMPROVE MY GAME HOW???) So anticipate where the ball is going to be before your opponent sees you hit it and pivot extra early - that's how the high level players do it and leave the U2000 wannabes in the dust.

Ok, on a more serious note, just be willing to miss the shot and lose matches. Impossible to improve any other way. Also, record yourself when using the robot. Many a robot has been an accessory to the crime of developing bad technique....

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2015, 03:49 
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Japsican wrote:
Hello all,

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I'm speaking about using my Classic Defense setup (aka my Chtchetinine setup below). This setup is Deflplay/P-1R 1.0mm/ TSP Triple Spin chop 1.2mm.

I am looking for strategy and techniques specific to Classical D. I think i've gotten to the point where "just putting the ball on the table" isn't working. I can vary the spin of my chops when not under TOO much pressure, and I twiddle often to my thin inverted rubber.
I came accross a guy who was very relaxed, about USATT 1800, and super consistent. I had less trouble with guys above his level as they were more bothered by underspin. I tried to vary the spin as much as possible. He just slow looped. They were high and arcing. With my modern D setup I'd have hit some of those high loops, but I didn't feel confident to do so with the thin inverted or the LPs (P-1R).

Here are my ideas:
1. Just bite the bullet and learn to attack with the thin inverted. That makes the style more Modern D but even Chtchetinine attacks once in a while. (Always learn to attack, most classical defenders of all time can attack, it's just when and how they choose too)

2. Increase my abiltiy to vary the spin. Not sure what else I need here, but I'm sure there's something to work on. Mayble work on variation when under pressure? Not sure. Ideas welcome. (You can't vary spin with the long pips side...well you can...but it's not gonna damage anyone in the long run and you will lose far more points then you gain trying it. The best way to manipulate spin is to give them heavy spin chops ALL the time and then throw in one no spin. That's where you get the pop up or miss)

3. Place chops at more varied angles? I tend to go to the BH corner and then try to go (not always successful) to the FH side. (VERY good idea! Move them around, keep your chops deep and move them, even slow movement is still difficult)

4. Side spin chops both BH and FH. Chtch is the bomb at this. (Chtch is bomb at the because he is forced to do it. Yes side spin chops are awesome, however moving your body into the position to do a side spin chop is not awesome and is just frustrating, higher level players side spin chop because people attack their hips or middle forcing them to practice this. Therefore...side spin chop is good, when forced to use it, but don't choose to use it unless forced)

5. Improve short game? Inverted pushing, twiddle, LP pushing. Maybe strong under/weak under variation here with the inverted specifically. (short game is just as if not more important then the long for a chopper which is a very not listened to fact. Every rally starts off with a short game touch and if your pushing isn't as consistent as your chop you are gonna have a bad time because what player would loop at you if they only have to push? Just forget about variation now

All you gotta do is remember #1 long #2 low. give yourself time.)

Any other ideas what else I might need to be doing?


I commented in brackets on each of you points.

But here are some of my ideas.

First. As a modern defender your number one strength should be consistency.
If they can slow loop all day, then you should be able to chop all day +1 lol.

If they can push all day then you should be able to out push them.

Every shot you should be better at the defending shot.

If someone slows the game down with high arcing loops. Make it slower with nice long slow deep chops and keep it on the table one more then him! If you all are itching to attack then he has actually more of a defensive mind then you do! Not a good thing for a classic defender.


He is bothering you with his style. And you as a classic defender should be not bothered by anything. it may be an ugly match...but you need to return it with your skills (chopping) as best you can.

If you can't, you now know what to practice:)

Another tip would be to make him scared to slow loop. Just counter once, or try to attack once, and he may keep slow looping it...but he will have to think twice every time.

This style of player is a pain for defenders...especially if they play with short pips...

just be consistent, relax because they aren't putting you under pressure and chop consistently. His slow loop is just as hard to do as your chop, and it may look easier so you panic....but it's not.

Keep up your defensive mind:)


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