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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 04:14 
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Wow LB super sound advice you got there! Solid one mate!

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 04:21 
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suds79 wrote:
I take it this is your new youtube channel?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWIdoG ... alw26n5QZQ

I've subbed. Keep the videos coming and thanks for the input.

Yup. That's the new one!

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 16:16 
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leatherback wrote:
The fact is is that with 99% of long pips when chopping, you can't change the spin to a degree that will cause an your opponent to have an error.

For example. If your opponent gives a loop with level 50 spin...with long pips, depending on the amount you brush you can return level 55 spin or level 45 spin....and doing these changes is very obvious to your opponent, difficult for you and for the most part useless. Watch long pop pros. They never change the spin on their backhand chops. The only variation that can come from long pips chopping is from depth and trajectory. Fast and slow and placement with great control.

Your statement may be true for pro chopping, as they do the full chopping motion all the time, and without it they would lose control of the ball, because they have grippy pips.

With amateur chopping and not so grippy pips the truth is different. We have 3 defenders in our club with close ratings and we produce very different spin from far away chopping.

1. Heavy chopper with grippy pips and usually thick sponge, maybe heviest underspin in the country.
2. Me with varying amounts of chopping motion and not so grippy pips.
3. Older ox player that usually don't do any kind of chopping motion - he just put blade in front of the ball. With my 0.5 sponge he does the same and balls still land good (althought not so low).

It's not like we are in 45-55% range spinwise, but more likely in the 30-70% range or more.


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PostPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 00:45 
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Update:

So in my quest to adopt a shakehand modern defender game (coming from penhold. Yeah it's a big switch) last night's practice went well. Must have hit 500 ish chops & same number for forehands vs robot. Training partner is coming over tonight.

Forehand topspin is the biggest adjustment. But that's to be expected coming from penhold. Surprisingly though chopping is very easy. Reminds me of the same motion almost I do on a standard pendulum serve.

The chopping. I'm starting to like the Palio ck531a 1.0 away from the table. Getting use to it. Felt that vs topsin, after a couple of hundred of balls I started to tweak and found I was hitting the ball to flat or too much on the backside of the paddle. The balls were relatively fast and maybe not super spiny. I'll save that for the change up in spin.

But after a while I really started to feel like I was almost hitting the pure bottom side of the ball and somehow with the low grip of the LP, not popping the ball up. Maybe I was finally starting to engage the sponge and/or bend the pips. Anyways, this was taking off the spin of the ball immensely and adding a whole lot more spin & consistency. So that was pleasing. I found it helps if I let the ball get pretty low for this shot. Say between knee & waist level.

Robot was also on oscillating which helped remind me to keep my feet moving. On balls where I maybe wasn't in the best of place and coming right at my body I ended up having to do this side swipe chopping motion that would seemingly curve greatly in the air. i almost suspect that ball has a bit of side top on it. Not sure. Either way, that might give some opponents fits. However I'm not nearly consistent enough to rely on that shot.

We'll see how things progress.

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2017, 02:26 
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When does it make sense to start to try to introduce intentional spin variation on FH chops into your game? Right now, I will only really introduce variation on purpose by alternating between FH and BH chops.

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2017, 18:22 
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kaesees wrote:
When does it make sense to start to try to introduce intentional spin variation on FH chops into your game? Right now, I will only really introduce variation on purpose by alternating between FH and BH chops.
Err, the truth is,

The spin variation also the function of what rubber did You use for chopping, so, twiddling between Inverted and LP gave largest variation, assuming the player can do both inverted and LP chopping well, on both wing. You are not at fault here. ;)

If You ask me, when to vary spin intentionally? I said, now, or as soon as possible. ;)

Several good way to vary spin, whether intentional or accidental :P
- Twiddling. Some may argue, but I trust twiddling the best way to vary spin
- Chop slower or faster than incoming ball spin
- intercept the ball with blade face close or far from the handle
- bend Your wrist up or down, or even more evil, inward or outward, and stationary or moving when chopping
- chop early or late
- chop perpendicular or lateral to incoming ball
- chop higher or lower than table height
- see or not see the ball. I have seen player that red my eyes when receiving, and this little trick really catch Him off guard
- intercept the ball with chop when the blade going down, sideways, or up. This the best weapon from Victoria Pavlovich. ;)
- chop down or stab down or sliding door retreat to the right. See Jang Song Man vs Cheung Yuk for reference.
- execute the chop or just stationary block.
- I may miss some good ways, so please add :)



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PostPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 02:46 
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kaesees wrote:
When does it make sense to start to try to introduce intentional spin variation on FH chops into your game? Right now, I will only really introduce variation on purpose by alternating between FH and BH chops.


Not sure whether you're asking when in your development as a player it makes sense to start working on making spin variation on forehand chops a part of your game or when, in the course of a game/point, it makes sense to try to introduce spin variation.

If it's the former, I'd say as soon as you feel comfortable with your bread-and-butter heavy forehand chop, you can start working on spin variation.

If it's the latter question you're asking, I'd say that what you usually want to try to do is start off with pure heavy chopping on your forehand to get that in your opponent's mind (and also to see how comfortable he is looping those heavy chops). Depending on their level, many opponents will put your initial heavy chops into the net and might take two or three chops before they get acclimated to them. As soon as that happens, you can start introducing spin variation. This is easiest to do off of your opponent's drives rather than heavy loops, but it tends to be super effective in the middle of points. So, for instance, here's a pattern: let's say you just chopped heavy with your BH pips, and your opponent pushed the ball to your backhand, whereupon you pushed with your pips (a no-spin ball). If your opponent tries to loop or drive the next ball to your forehand, it's unlikely to be super spinny, which makes it easier for you to control, and so a fake chop here is effective.

Of course, once you get the hang of fake-chopping off of heavier loops, then you can really confuse opponents with back-to-back forehand chops of the spinny and non-spinny varieties. The key is not to overuse this stroke. You want your opponent staring in confusion at his rubber rather than realizing why he missed.

One thing I'll add is this: the reason many people find it hard to do a fake chop is that their "real" forehand chop isn't sufficiently heavy. They do too much scooping under the ball and not enough actual grazing of the ball in an axe-like diagonal motion. So, as I said, before you introduce this stroke into your game, you'll want to make sure you can actually do a real, heavy forehand chop.

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Last edited by TraditionalTradesman on 31 Aug 2017, 07:29, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 05:31 
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Might help to answer the original question, if you think about asking the question about loop instead of chop. How many points are actually won by fooling the opponent with a dummy loop fake top spin and how many are won by strongest possible top spin? I'd say very few are won by fakery and any fakery works best when the player is lower and thus you probably don't even need to fool them to win. The better the player the more they will see through your fakes because they see and evaluate each ball very well.

So my two cents, I'd say work on producing stronger chops that have to be lifted by the opponent and putting more chops on the table, just like you would work on stronger top spin and more loops on the table.

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PostPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 08:45 
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fleetwood999 wrote:
Might help to answer the original question, if you think about asking the question about loop instead of chop. How many points are actually won by fooling the opponent with a dummy loop fake top spin and how many are won by strongest possible top spin? I'd say very few are won by fakery and any fakery works best when the player is lower and thus you probably don't even need to fool them to win. The better the player the more they will see through your fakes because they see and evaluate each ball very well.

So my two cents, I'd say work on producing stronger chops that have to be lifted by the opponent and putting more chops on the table, just like you would work on stronger top spin and more loops on the table.


Would largely agree with that, which is why I said that the first thing you want to develop is a heavy forehand chop. I know many 2000-level choppers who still can't do a heavy forehand chop. I would say, however, that "fake" chops do work even at a decent playing level. Maybe they're not going to fool a 2300-level player too often, but at my level (around 2000), fake chops (and fake loops) thrown in at the right moment work wonders. This is because many players at this level are still so focused on their own technique that when they miss, their immediate thought is about what they did wrong rather than about what you did to deceive them. There are many players, even at this level, who are not even aware that fake chops and fake loops are part of the game. They don't know how to do them, and they don't recognize them. They see a chopper doing a chopping motion, and their mind just quickly checks the "chop" box and goes into the automatic response mode. The key, as I said, is that you don't want to do this too often. It should be an occasional variation, and you can use it, for example, when your looper opponent just netted one of your heavy forehand chops and is, therefore, like to overcompensate on the next attempt.

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