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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2016, 23:08 
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Modern defender newbie here. Just have a couple of questions.

First off, I know varying spin in the chop game is a big factor. Between light spin & heavy. I've watched several pros on youtube but seeing the subtle differences in exactly how they do this can be tricky. Is there a way I can spot it? Is it as simple as chopping harder & down on some balls vs lightly on others? Or would a spin variation be considered chopping with more of a sideways motion to vary the spin. Do you find you use wrist action down on your chops? I've found I don't use mine much in chops.

Is it a problem that I'm left handed as a chopper? You don't really see too many pros like that. It could be just that being left handed & a chopper is unlikely. Or it could be there is some distinct disadvantage to it.

When chopping off the table and the opponent pushes the ball. Several players will come in and forehand loop that ball. I can do that however on balls that a player doesn't want to attack I've noticed they'll twiddle (I can do that just fine) to their inverted and push it back to keep it as backspin then twiddle back to their standard side of inverted FH & LP BH. Should I always do this? Is it too difficult to push a backspin ball with LPs and keep it low?

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BH: Palio ck531a 1.0 (I really like sponged LPs as I like to occasionally attack with them close to the table. Much easier with sponge I've found compared to OX)

Any advice you guys might have I'd appreciate. Thanks.

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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2016, 23:31 
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suds79 wrote:
First off, I know varying spin in the chop game is a big factor. Between light spin & heavy. I've watched several pros on youtube but seeing the subtle differences in exactly how they do this can be tricky. Is there a way I can spot it? Is it as simple as chopping harder & down on some balls vs lightly on others? Or would a spin variation be considered chopping with more of a sideways motion to vary the spin. Do you find you use wrist action down on your chops? I've found I don't use mine much in chops.

I am certainly not expert in spin variations, but for me it seems that letting the ball drop and then chopping under the ball with lot of wrist action gives best spin. If you go behind the ball without wrist, spin will be less.

I don't find that Palio ck531a is very good at adding the spin. It's strenght is more in the safeness and fast floater type of chops.

Quote:
Is it too difficult to push a backspin ball with LPs and keep it low?

For pro's it don't seem to be difficult... :lol: For me it's often difficult, so I usually roll/bumb the backspin ball back with top spin. I have Palio ck531a 0.5 and for me it's a difficult rubber to make inverted like push with. It's difficult to adjust the height of the push and yes, it will pop up frequently. With Palio ck531a 0.5 I usually have to deal underspin balls with vertical blade angle instead of open blade.


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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2016, 23:36 
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Roy wrote:
For pro's it don't seem to be difficult... :lol: For me it's often difficult, so I usually roll/bumb the backspin ball back with top spin. I have Palio ck531a 0.5 and for me it's a difficult rubber to make inverted like push with. It's difficult to adjust the height of the push and yes, it will pop up frequently. With Palio ck531a 0.5 I usually have to deal underspin balls with vertical blade angle instead of open blade.


Right. That makes sense. I do know that's an opportunity. To attack with a flat forward and slightly upward movement to attack the backspin. However I get into trouble if i try that and I'm reaching too much (say I don't quite get there in time). Furthermore, I guess I was looking for opportunities to switch it up to keep them guessing. I guess I can do that still. I will just twiddle to inverted and push if I want to keep it in the backspin game or push attack with the LPs if i want to give them topspin.

Perhaps right now ck531a since you say it's safe is good for me. But if it's not that great for adding spin in say chops off the table, what would you recommend? I'll try to integrate more wrist in the heavier chops. Right now, like I said don't use a whole lot of wrist, that feels safe but my opponent, who can loop well, just soft loops my chops over & over without much difficulty... I'm guessing that means they're not low enough or spiny enough.

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 00:19 
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suds79 wrote:
Roy wrote:
I will just twiddle to inverted and push if I want to keep it in the backspin game or push attack with the LPs if i want to give them topspin.

That's good solution, if you have ability to twiddle. I am bad as BH inverted pusher, so I try to deal everything with pips on the BH.
Quote:
Perhaps right now ck531a since you say it's safe is good for me. But if it's not that great for adding spin in say chops off the table, what would you recommend? I'll try to integrate more wrist in the heavier chops. Right now, like I said don't use a whole lot of wrist, that feels safe but my opponent, who can loop well, just soft loops my chops over & over without much difficulty... I'm guessing that means they're not low enough or spiny enough.

Yes, adding spin with Palio feels hopeless to me, but I had no particular problems with floaty chops. They have their own kind of disturbance. Adding wrist makes chopping more demanding. I can add wrist in drills, but in real games I usually just light chop for the sake of the safety. To add wrist, you have to be in better position "under the ball".

If your opponent loops your chops over and over again, they are too easy chops - one way or the another. It's not just spin, althought spin variation helps. Someone in the forum said that "Palio was easiest for him to play, but it also was easiest for opponent to play". Propably you chops are too high without enough forward momentum and spin, and those kind of chops can be easy. I gave my blade to test for a fellow defender (who just put's the blade in the way of the ball) and the looper said that his chops were much easier to loop. So it's not just the blade, but the person who uses it.

I haven't tested that many sponged pips, but I am very happy with my Sanwei Code (it's cheap) - it's less grippy kind of pip like Palio, but clearly slower. Pro's and best players in the forum use grippy pips like Feints and P1r, but for me they are challenge, because I am used to play ox with not much grip. They are not automatic answer to missing spin, if you don't have wrist action.


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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 00:35 
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Your set up is fine. Don't start the changing equipment to try to solve your problem with the spin variation....

The fact is is that with 99% of long pips when chopping, you can't change the spin to a degree that will cause an your opponent to have an error.

For example. If your opponent gives a loop with level 50 spin...with long pips, depending on the amount you brush you can return level 55 spin or level 45 spin....and doing these changes is very obvious to your opponent, difficult for you and for the most part useless. Watch long pop pros. They never change the spin on their backhand chops. The only variation that can come from long pips chopping is from depth and trajectory. Fast and slow and placement with great control.

When watching matches and you see someone miss a chop from long pips it is almost 100 percent either a strange ball or their opponent changed something in their last shot (more spin more smash etc) and the chopper did not change which therefore makes the attacker assume the ball is the same but it isn't. The chopper didn't manipulate the spin. The attacker did.

Now on the other hand, long pips on serve return and other close to the table shots can be used to great effect when changing spin. You can continue it, kill it, add to it, reverse it change it to side spin...and this is where spin manipulation from long pips work.

As far as twiddling goes, if you are far out of position and are running to reach a ball, twiddle and use inverted because you can use a very quick stab at the ball and return with back spin allowing you to regain your composure....if you have time to prepare, use the long pips and spin manipulation to your advantage!

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 01:09 
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very good stuff!

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 01:51 
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Really good stuff so far from everyone.

Leatherback, i've seen your video where you were chopping vs Eugene Wang. (at least I believe that's you if I remember right.) That's a great video for seeing off the table chopping and how to chop block and/or attack close to the table. Every LPer should watch that. Good stuff.

You are familiar with, or know, Sun Jian Fei don't you? Granted he doesn't play like your traditional modern defender (IMO much more agressive) but I love his style. However I haven't seen anything recent from him online at all. Is he still playing that you know of?

Unfortunately with the switch to plastic, I like to try to find more current videos of players I follow to see the subtle changes in style of play.

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 02:16 
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Any link to that video you mentioned of Leatherback?

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 02:22 
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suds79 wrote:
Really good stuff so far from everyone.

Leatherback, i've seen your video where you were chopping vs Eugene Wang. (at least I believe that's you if I remember right.) That's a great video for seeing off the table chopping and how to chop block and/or attack close to the table. Every LPer should watch that. Good stuff.

You are familiar with, or know, Sun Jian Fei don't you? Granted he doesn't play like your traditional modern defender (IMO much more agressive) but I love his style. However I haven't seen anything recent from him online at all. Is he still playing that you know of?

Unfortunately with the switch to plastic, I like to try to find more current videos of players I follow to see the subtle changes in style of play.

He's my coach. He was in China for a year. He wants to train and play in the next Olympics but he has a kid now so who knows.

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 02:25 
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rokphish2 wrote:
Any link to that video you mentioned of Leatherback?

https://youtu.be/zPfzID-HHVc

Unfortunately the email account accociated with the video has been dropped (it was my university email) and I don't have access to it anymore lol...so these are from about 4 years ago...I would say ive significantly improved especially in standard chopping as my game went that way more....but this is that video.

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 02:39 
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I take it this is your new youtube channel?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWIdoG ... alw26n5QZQ

I've subbed. Keep the videos coming and thanks for the input.

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 02:54 
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leatherback wrote:
rokphish2 wrote:
Any link to that video you mentioned of Leatherback?

https://youtu.be/zPfzID-HHVc

Unfortunately the email account accociated with the video has been dropped (it was my university email) and I don't have access to it anymore lol...so these are from about 4 years ago...I would say ive significantly improved especially in standard chopping as my game went that way more....but this is that video.

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What do you mean by standard chopping?

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 03:03 
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A distance from the table standard defensive chopping. Not chop blocking.

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 03:10 
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leatherback wrote:
rokphish2 wrote:
Any link to that video you mentioned of Leatherback?

https://youtu.be/zPfzID-HHVc

Unfortunately the email account accociated with the video has been dropped (it was my university email) and I don't have access to it anymore lol...so these are from about 4 years ago...I would say ive significantly improved especially in standard chopping as my game went that way more....but this is that video.

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LB, Never seen you on vid before, so I had no idea you were so young (ok, so you're 5 years older now, but still young LOL). I think I figured you've been around here so long you just had more age on you :P You've got some serious twiddling skills there. Your chops and blocks remind me of me (I just wish I had your movement to go along with them :lol: ). You seem high on the LP shots you're making like they were B12 shots instead :rock: :lol: There is a few shots you have in there that I don't have with my LP, but I think it comes down to the speed of my blade. I do sometimes find that the faster blade is more of a liability than an asset, particularly against certain styled opponents. That little dig and push/pinch shot that you have is hard for me to do with such aggression as I'll send it long mostly like that (I do do it , but I am always trying to take so much pace off the ball that it doesn't return with much teeth, although it still has some backspin, just not so much as it seems you get with the firmer shot). And I certainly can't keep the ball consistently short off the loops you're being given there.

Anyway, it was very interesting to watch this. Thanks for posting it up. Makes me wanna train more |-)

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 03:25 
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Leatherback, (or anybody else who is an experienced chopper)

Any particular difference in these two chop block strokes here?

http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=YgYFPJ ... n#/112;116

The first one is staight down. The next is more down & to the side. Does that add any sidespin of note for the attacker?

Or does going off to the side like that take any off the ball? As in taking off the pace of the ball?

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