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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2018, 23:23 
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Hi.
I play LP for about 3 years. I play rather classical defence than modern but I can attack with my fh very well with weaker opponents. My biggest problem (from ages) is when opponent plays backspin to my bh. That's why I was rotating my rubbers- i started with DTecS 1.2 but it was too hard (fast) to play as the beginner, then P1R 1.0 and it was even worse (chops were similar to DTecS, but I still didn't know what to do with backspin balls), then Spinlord Agenda 1.0 but it was similar to P1R but a bit worse, now I play with Joola CWX 0.5.
With CWX I can push such a ball easily by flat hit. It was harder with other rubbers because they were more sensitive to incoming spin (it's matter of learning to read it). If I try to cut backspin ball with CWX 0.5 it usually goes very high and is easy for opponent to smash (i have hard feeling of ball doing this, I have to have really soft hand and do 'half cut-half push', in spite of having extremely sof blade which I change to VKM). About 30-40% goes very flat and is veeeery hard for opponent. Do You think I should go back to P1R 1.0 and learn to cut underspin balls? (I am keen on P1R, I think if best classic defenders play it, it's the best rubber for that style and gives me possibility to develop my game) Will I learn playing vs backspin with the training time?

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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2018, 23:38 
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Backspin balls are easily attacked with LP, so I would be more aggressive there instead of pushing them. I'm playing with OX though, so perhaps it's different with sponge.

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 00:07 
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grothe doesnt seem happy here-how do you attack evgueni with the pips ?


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 00:11 
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I am still figuring this out myself, I however have only tried 5 different pips and I have been sticking with FL2 and won't be changing for a very long time as you really need to just choose 1 and stick to it to learn the ins and out of those specific pips.

Definitely helps with sponge, and FL2 specifically can play this shot. I have only had 1 or 2 times where I practised with someone to push push and push some more. The one thing I found was that sometimes if the push is a bit high and loaded I need to let the ball drop a little in order to get a good push of mine own, but most of the time I really need to dig hard into the pips and sponge to produce a good push.
I still have a lot of work to do for this to become really consistent so its something I will try to get more practise with.

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 00:17 
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Markus is unhappy because mostly he can not loop Evgenyi's chops. He does not push with his pips much, though, instead lifting it - more aggressive version of it can be found in Zhang Guochi thread here

viewtopic.php?f=35&p=348688

Look at his 'mudflap' shot against Chen Weixing. It can be more aggressive and lower as well (I think...)

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 01:03 
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Guys
I've said this before and I will repeat this again. The solution to the issue is very simple: you have to learn how to push with your LP against an inverted push. The rubber doesn't really matter IMHO. You don't have to twiddle, you don't have to attack - you just have to learn to push with LP consistently. It's a difficult shot to master but it will pay off in a long run. Of course you could alternate and push inverted, vary your shots, attack, etc etc. But IMHO it shouldn't be your primary response.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 01:46 
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When you mean push, do you mean a flat push (like a push blocker) or a horizontal push (like an inverted push).

I agree that the latter is a good stroke as long as you place it well, but the general attitude around here is that you should never push a push with LPs. I've disagreed with that, because it's been successful for me, and I've see Chtchetinine and Joo push pushes all the time with great success. But you will hear people say not to do that. Point is, you MUST place that well as the spin is diminished and a good looper will demolish it.

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 02:31 
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pgpg wrote:
Markus is unhappy because mostly he can not loop Evgenyi's chops. He does not push with his pips much, though, instead lifting it - more aggressive version of it can be found in Zhang Guochi thread here

viewtopic.php?f=35&p=348688

Look at his 'mudflap' shot against Chen Weixing. It can be more aggressive and lower as well (I think...)

i see what you mean.looks difficult to master lol-ill stick with my "take your brain and just play" classic anti :Chop:


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 02:49 
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@pgpg
What do You mean by attack with LP? Something like loop (at my country- just topspin) or hiting forward (flat push)?

@Ndragon
I agree with You. I tried 4 different LPs but P1R is 'maestro' of LPs for me (because its made for my style of play). It is hard to use but if u did good move it pays profits, if u did bad move u get loss. So do You think i should back to P1R and try to master this one rubber even if my results will be worse at the near future?

@notfound123
So practice practice and one more time- practice? :)

@Japsican
Bu push i mean flat push like chop blocker (in my country thats the meaning of push). I try doing the same as Joo and Evgieni but the result is not good. Maybe some guide how to do it correctly?

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 05:07 
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Japsican wrote:
When you mean push, do you mean a flat push (like a push blocker) or a horizontal push (like an inverted push).

This ---> a horizontal push (like an inverted push).

Japsican wrote:
I agree that the latter is a good stroke as long as you place it well, but the general attitude around here is that you should never push a push with LPs.

I don't know what the majority thinks but my coach time and time again forces me to push like you would normally push with inverted. Just like you said Joo does it all the time. I see Ma Te do it all the time too. I believe this is the way to push if you are a sponge player. If you play with something slippery and an OX, your best bet would be to copy Jian Li's pushes/bumps.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 05:35 
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notfound123 wrote:
Japsican wrote:
When you mean push, do you mean a flat push (like a push blocker) or a horizontal push (like an inverted push).

This ---> a horizontal push (like an inverted push).

Japsican wrote:
I agree that the latter is a good stroke as long as you place it well, but the general attitude around here is that you should never push a push with LPs.

I don't know what the majority thinks but my coach time and time again forces me to push like you would normally push with inverted. Just like you said Joo does it all the time. I see Ma Te do it all the time too. I believe this is the way to push if you are a sponge player. If you play with something slippery and an OX, your best bet would be to copy Jian Li's pushes/bumps.


Yes, that's probably an important tidbit - I spent 90+% of time playing with OX, it feels.

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 05:37 
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notfound123 wrote:
Japsican wrote:
I agree that the latter is a good stroke as long as you place it well, but the general attitude around here is that you should never push a push with LPs.

I don't know what the majority thinks but my coach time and time again forces me to push like you would normally push with inverted. Just like you said Joo does it all the time. I see Ma Te do it all the time too. I believe this is the way to push if you are a sponge player. If you play with something slippery and an OX, your best bet would be to copy Jian Li's pushes/bumps.

Make no mistake, I agree with YOU. I'm just stating that I've been challenged on this in the past. If you watch Chtchetinine, his entire game is predicated on the horizontal pips push. He almost always serves underspin short or half long, and almost always gets a pushed return. Always. And because he's more classic chopper than Modern Defender, he banks on good placement of these pushed balls to get a manageable loop to chop. He's so freaking methodical. But he twiddles to inverted a lot for variation as well.

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 07:10 
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Coach is right..it is to push like you would normally push with inverted. Just like Joo and Ma Te do it all the time.
I'd directly go with P1R or Feint Long 2 with 1 mm.sponge...and learning happens when you keep on playing.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 07:43 
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Am I the only one to think, that it does not matter which pips you use? You can push with all of them. And you can side-swipe or punch a ball with all of them. Pushing is easier the thicker, the two other strokes the thinner the sponge is. A compromise can be using a thin sponge.

If you know your equipment, you can create enough spin on your own with every legal lp, as they have to be grippy. And you always can control the height and length of your stroke. There is no such thing as "flat" or "high" bounce, you simply have to adjust your stroke and timing. Oh, see the constraint at the beginning of this paragraph? "If you know your equipment". So don't change, every lp will do. Doesn't matter if you use BTY, TSP, Tibhar, DHS or Palio, GD, FS or any other one... You always find some player using the same equipment as you, who can control the stroke you are struggling with. So it's not the rubber, it's you.

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 08:13 
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Forgot one thing. How often do you practice pushing? Nowadays it's very uncommon to do so, lots of (mostly younger) players avoid it. A lot of coaches think it unnecessary - looping is modern. But there is a rule: as a defender, no one should be able to outpush you. So you have to practice it, it won't be given to you for free.

Every training session make your partner push with you for some 5-10 minutes. Try to vary spin, placemant and speed of your pushes without them popping up. Try to make your partner net your (lp) push. Try to make him pop up your push. Make a contest out of it, play a set or a match. You push using only your lp, your partner can push with whatever he thinks suits him best. Then do it again, but this time you use your inverted rubber. Put a little wager on the outcome (I like playing for beer or a cocktail). I bet it takes only a few sessions until you start to control the spin you create with your lp and less than a quarter of a year before you can destroy most opponents solely by pushing.

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