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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 07:42 
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Just chiming in for a quick sec, and also, I’m a noob, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I’ve tried pushing like I would with inverted with. 0.7 thick Dawei 388d-1 and dang it was low and short. I pushed into the net first time I tried, but everyone here seems to say otherwise. Please take this with a grain of salt though because I don’t claim to know anything :( Few other things I remember if memory serves is that my push actually had light-medium light backspin against backspin and the feeling was slightly weird

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 08:00 
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0x556c69 wrote:
BeGo wrote:
I should add that,
pushing / slicing a back spin ball is essentially counter spinning the ball, and counter spin is never an LP forte, that belong to inverted.
LP designed to be used for following the spin rather than counter spin, hence.
A flat jab or BH drive, or even looping with LP is more logical choice. :)
And,
No defender could defend, nor He or She has to, when the opponent did not attack. ;)

You're right with both of your statements. Yes, it is more difficult to use LP for pushing, especially against no spin or backspin because of its design. But IT CAN BE DONE with great consistency. At the same time, most LP are really slow, so the drive, flat jab or loop is relatively slow and will be killed even by intermediate opponents, if they pay attention. Of course, deception helps there so it evens out a bit. This is the technical and mechanic side of the problem.

The real problem is - as stated before - the tactical situation. A DEFENDER defends. This does not change, even if the attacker refuses to attack. In this case the defender plays it safe, waiting for the attack. By saying "playing it safe" I do not mean "do never attack" but I mean "ever keep in a situation, where you can bring the ball back". This is simply not the case, if you are doing stuff that requires you staying at the table. But it is the case if you are pushing. So pushing is not the way to WIN the point, but the way NOT TO LOOSE it.

How goes the saying? The best offense wins games, the best defense wins championships? Concerning TT-playing styles I would formulate it rather as "attack wins points - defense is about not loosing points. He/She who does not loose points wins".


Agree with 0x.

That is why defender "invite" the opponent to make mistakes, e.g., twiddling to maximise "width of spectrum" between spinny and unspinny returns.

My "push all" training is basically goes,

Slice, twiddle, slice, twiddle, slice, slice, twiddle, slice, ....

While trying to keep all the ball on the table. I admit I am not that consistent yet. :)



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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 08:47 
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From a long pimple tutorial:

You have a number of options to handle backspin balls.

1. Push forward and up. Keep the open, neutral racket angle.
2. Do a looping stroke and give some momentum, making sure to bend the pimples, at least a bit. It can work well sometimes, as a surprise effect. Your opponent reacts instinctively on your stroke movements, and return as if there was topspin, and the ball goes into the net.
3. If you use the long pips on your backhand, try a wrist movement. Contrary to short pips, the wrist should be avoided with long pips but could work.
4. Close to the net, push upwards, that is, with a digging motion.
5. Should you attack with the pips, it is on the backspin balls you should attack. To attack, go hard upward and forward! Especially if you use ox or a thin sponge, which means your rubber dampens, you need to start the stroke upwards, otherwise the ball will go into the net.
6. On a high-enough ball, just push it flat so it goes just over the net and drops on the other side due to the backspin.

If you get a lot of backspin towards you, that is, if your opponent makes a chop or a dig (a sharp, long push), then remember to do as described in this section, properly. But, do not attempt to do a chop!

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2018, 10:34 
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I've read through the thread and again, it seems the terms are confusing... the germans apparently have a separate word for the "long pip push" and it would be mighty helpful to have in english too!

People say "aggressive push" with long pips, and that doesn't clarify the terms either.

Horizontal push!? Again, not too clear.

In this video with leatherback, every time the guy in black does a regular inverted push (so he is sending over back spin), leatherback is LP 'bumping' the ball back. Aggressive pushing?

http://youtu.be/zPfzID-HHVc?t=3m34s

Or in this video with Amir (using anti, but the technique is about the same)

At 3:08 or so:




I don't think "pushing" should even be used when talking about the slippery LP OX or frictionless anti. Because you're not really pushing the ball, as you would with grippy inverted. You are keeping the blade more perpendicular to the table and hitting into the ball -- like a piston punching forward, reversing the back spin into top spin or a dead ball depending.

But with grippy LP, are people saying to push the ball back -- just as you would with grippy inverted? That is, kind of brushing the ball and spinning it back? Whereas the 'bump' with slippery/anti is more of a flat hit into the ball.

I chop a lot with both anti and OX LP, so against backspin I am hitting the ball and wouldn't call it 'pushing' but I guess that comes down to terms.

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2018, 15:25 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
I've read through the thread and again, it seems the terms are confusing... the germans apparently have a separate word for the "long pip push" and it would be mighty helpful to have in english too!

People say "aggressive push" with long pips, and that doesn't clarify the terms either.

Horizontal push!? Again, not too clear.

In those videos shot is the "bump" in my book. I would say that "roll" is slower and different, starting with open blade head - useful as safe shot against heavy backspin.


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2018, 21:37 
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Really enjoying the discussion here in this thread, guys!

This is a topic I've struggled with quite a bit myself. It's a very common argument that pushing with pips is a recipe for disaster and that the resulting weak underspin/no spin will just be killed, but the fact remains, we see pros at the top level push with pips against backspin all the time without issue. And yes, they're pros, but they are also facing opponents who can loop/kill nearly anything...

But I've also seen how effective pips attacks can be against underspin, especially at the intermediate/early advanced level most of us mere mortals play in.

I'm in the camp that you should learn both. They both have their place, and in certain situations, both will result in easy points--particularly for those in the sub 2000 (USATT) ratings level.

If some inverted player is going to stubbornly send you short, heavy sidespin/underspin serves and pushes to your pips side, knowing how to punch those back aggressively will usually end the point outright. And there are *many* lower level inverted players who will consistently pop up pips pushes or loop them long because they can't divorce what they see (a heavy looking push) from what they get from the pips (light/no spin).

Throw some twiddling in the mix and things get even more fun!

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2018, 00:59 
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There are those people who are fairly clueless against junk rubbers. And for them, when I receive a heavy push or chop, I can push back inverted style with my anti... which is sending back top spin, although they think it is back spin. So a pop up happens. But any decent player will learn to avoid that trick after a few times at most.

With ox or slick anti I'm not sure the traditional push is ever very useful. It pretty much gives a dead or low spin ball unless the incoming ball is very heavy. Some times I hold the blade angle at an inverted push angle but slap into the ball instead of brushing. That can be confusing a few times as well for some.

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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 19:06 
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OK, I was absent here for a week, but I was practising hard ;) Decided to make some pictures in Paint (xD) and ask You which move is correct:
Image

Image

Which one angle is correct and which move?
I played match yesterday and while pushing horizontally like at picture 2 (like I do it with inverted) the ball was going high (just brushed) or in the net (moved forward). I usually do it as it's on picture 1 and do move forward (and slightly downward) and it's not bad

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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 19:33 
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Picture 1 is correct, and move into direction 2. You can actually hold the bat surface much more vertical and the ball will still go over, as long as there is backspin on the ball. The video with leatherback above shows that really well.

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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 19:55 
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OK. So it isn't exactly like with inverted. I play with inverted much more horizontal, almost like in the picture 2.
And the more backspin the angle should be more vertical or horizontal?

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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 20:02 
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Correct, not like inverted at all. As you experienced already, if you hold the bat horizontal, the ball will be pop up. Brushing it near horizontal also results in much less reversal.
Against balls with more backspin, you can either hold the bat slightly more horizontal, but a better option is usually to hold it at the same (near vertical) angle and punch through harder (the higher backspin will result in more topspin, so you can push/punch harder while still landing the ball).

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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 21:23 
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Thanks! Does this mechanic work same with thick sponged LP?

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 00:01 
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This explains why you were popping up the ball. I would add that your bat can be more horizontal only against very spinny extreme underspin...but depends on how much sponge and grip you have in your LP. They are all very different, and so your bat angles will be different.

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 00:45 
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Thank You. So task for my nearest trainings is to practice pushing and find correct bat angle. I have a feeling i will get it ;)

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