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 Post subject: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2015, 13:13 
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Okay. I'll start by saying that I currently play with Dragon Talon OX. I love it, and I'm playing better than I have ever played. I've started to morph into a more all-around pip player. Sometimes chopping, chop-blocking, and lately, hitting and aggressive pushing.

Stroke needing help: Hitting / Attacking underspin

Talon is slipperier than the P-1R I previously used, I find it to be a little trickier to attack with, mostly due to the lack of grip and dwell. Less topspin, less arc, smaller margin for error. However, that comes with the added benefit of making the ball harder to return for my opponents.

I have figured out how to make the hit a bit more higher percentage in terms of landing on the table...a open-faced brush stroke, while at the same time doing a quick punch motion...kinda hard to explain...

So I need advice on making this stroke as high percentage as possible, but at the same time keeping it dangerous. The more topspin, the less dangerous it is unless it's struck very hard and very quickly (at least that's my perception). I try to keep the angle sharp away from the opponent.

There is also a time and a place for the plain ole flat punch hit with no spin, however this strok has an even smaller margin for error, as there is no arc. Because I often sail these over the edge, I reserve this stroke for high balls that (appear) to be sure things.

Tips on making both of these shots higher percentage is greatly appreciated. Any video is even better...I've looked but don't see what I'm looking for specifically .

Thanks in advanced. :up:

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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2015, 13:42 
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Playing with Dtecs I've faced the same challenge. I found two things that made my attacks much more consistent;
1. a faster blade - changed from Tachi+ to Smart, which made attacks easier
2. use a side-brush motion on attacks, the more I brush the more consistent my attacks. This even made attacking no-spin balls viable

Perhaps my brush stroke is already the same as yours, in which case this won't be much help. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 04:37 
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The more backspin on the ball, the easier it is to attack backspin. I used DTecs 1.2, but it also worked with OX. I just hit through the spin (like with SP) with a slightly open bat and the ball lands. I always put a little sidespin on those balls, though. But hitting through the ball is the key. You can hit harder the more backspin there is on the ball.

Don't try to brush with a pip like Dtecs/Talon when you want to attack hard. That's just a plain low percentage shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 05:58 
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Hi Haggisv,
Can you explain the side brush stroke motion in more detail,
i.e. where the blade starts and ends, angle of the blade, where the blade tip starts and ends, etc.
Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 06:06 
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Tips on making both of these shots higher percentage is greatly appreciated. Any video is even better...I've looked but don't see what I'm looking for specifically ......
If the ball you are going to punch is high enough try punching with the tip of the blade pointing more towards the ceiling this can help bring it down onto the table a bit like Carl Prean when he was using pips to attack,also don`t forget the fast push this is another way to put pressure to the `enemy`

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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 06:31 
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Lorre wrote:

Don't try to brush with a pip like Dtecs/Talon when you want to attack hard. That's just a plain low percentage shot.


Hmmm... The brush is what I feel makes it HIGHER percentage. Hitting flat thru the ball seems lower. Am I wrong about that? Or are you talking specifically about balls with huge amounts of underspin, thus making brushing not as necessary.

Thanks for responding.

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Last edited by Japsican on 05 Jan 2015, 08:28, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 06:37 
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v02man wrote:
Hi Haggisv,
Can you explain the side brush stroke motion in more detail,
i.e. where the blade starts and ends, angle of the blade, where the blade tip starts and ends, etc.
Thanks

+1.

I would love clarification on when and how the side brush motion is applied. Are you suggesting to hit top spin + side spin during the hit? Or are you performing more of a swipe?

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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 07:32 
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dazzler wrote:
If the ball you are going to punch is high enough try punching with the tip of the blade pointing more towards the ceiling this can help bring it down onto the table a bit like Carl Prean when he was using pips to attack,also don`t forget the fast push this is another way to put pressure to the `enemy`


I found video of Carl Prean...can you perhaps watch the long pips section and pinpoint that technique...if it's in that vid? Fast forward to about 22:00, which is where the LP stuff begins. His attack stroke is very unorthodox...but looks very quick and consistent.

I also see a stroke in there which may or may not be what Alex is talking about.

I perform the aggressive push pretty well right now and employ that often. This is a real winner for me as I can safely place those from one corner to the other, and they are fast with pretty decent underspin. The attack vs. sidespin is kinda what I envisioned Alex was speaking about...kind of like a chop but to the side. THe other one is the stroke Carl uses when lifting underspin...the tip is kind of pointed downward and he lifts the ball.


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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 22:27 
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Japsican wrote:
Hmmm... The brush is what I feel makes it HIGHER percentage. Hitting flat thru the ball seems lower. Am I wrong about that? Or are you talking specifically about balls with huge amounts of underspin, thus making brushing not as necessary.

Thanks for responding.


I'm talking about all underspin balls, but I let the speed of my attack depend on the amount of backspin on the ball (more backspin=harder hit). As long as the ball is placed enough these balls are very dangerous and more dangerous with LP with less friction (e.g. DTecs, Talon) than with more friction (e.g. P1-R).

Imagine it this way. If you brush a ball with something that has low friction, the chances are high the ball will slip through it and will land somewhere you don't want to, be it too short (in the net) or be it too long (over the table). If you hit through the ball, you'll use the spin of the opponent to make your own attack. Pips with less friction reverse better than those with more grip. The ball will dip, even if it seems more of a straight line.

You might want to correct your angle of hitting the ball. Hitting underspin is best done with a slightly open angle.

Off course the blade can be a huge factor in the difference we experience. I use this shot with the Joo which has hard outer plies. Is the Aurora a soft or hard blade? A pip might behave differently because of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2015, 05:36 
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Lorre wrote:
Off course the blade can be a huge factor in the difference we experience. I use this shot with the Joo which has hard outer plies. Is the Aurora a soft or hard blade? A pip might behave differently because of that.


Sadly, I am not 100% sure if it's a hard outer ply. I have used the Defplay Senso in OX and the Aurora in ox...as well as a TSP Birmingham 77 JPEN blade. It feels harder than the Defplay, but that could just be the lack of flex due to the thick balsa core. Also, the ACT kind of dampens the vibrations...so i'm not sure. The Jpen was definitely harder. (I had OX 802-40 on the RBP side.)

I searched, and couldn't find out what the outer ply of the defensive side is made of (it's a combi blade). Perhaps someone can enlighten me on this.

I can tell you this, I get way better reversal from the Aurora on passive blocks, but about the same on chops. (Although sometimes I feel like the balsa is very non-linear and there is a threshold at which the stroke goes from a 3 to a 9 on my chops. So I have to account for that.

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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2015, 05:38 
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Do any of you have videos of yourselves performing these strokes? We should have a stickied thread of members performing and demonstrating such things. :clap: :rock: ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2015, 01:19 
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Japsican wrote:


Wow.. talk about twiddling.

The girl commentator saying "Playing with pimples" at the beginning had me chuckling... I think "Playing with pips-out" wouldn't have had the double meaning... :lol:

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 03:21 
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This may help:



Ian

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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 19:49 
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That's a good video, but it does not really describe the side-swipe stroke that some of use have mentioned here. It seems this player is trying to overcome the lack of grip with a very fast wrist action, which is indeed a hard thing to do (as they mention).

I'll try and make some time to show a little video of how I do it... I've been meaning to test the slo-motion on my new phone, and this seems like an ideal opportunity. ;) Whether I post it or not will depend on how 'bad' it looks. :oops: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Attacking underspin
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2015, 00:48 
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Come on Alex, we are dying to watch how you do it, please show the video even if it isn't perfect! :clap:


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