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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 23:07 
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Now that I'd class myself as a fairly competent LP chopper I've started having the odd knock with my SPs too.

On Friday I played a full-on classic defence game against one of my regular training partners and found the SPs to be quite effective - they're basically spinny at every point. One thing I didn't do, anywhere near enough, is try to lessen the spin on my chops in hopes of pop-up or balls off the end of the table.

However, when I then played against a spinny Premier division player I had serious difficulty keeping the ball on the table. Oddly, it wasn't the topspin, but his massive sidespin that caused me problems.

The one thing that was blatantly apparent is that if I don't make perfect contact with the SPs against a spinny loop - i.e. the length of the contact on my bat isn't enough - the topspin will be far too powerful for me to keep the ball on the table. I think that's why, early doors, I had so many problems trying to chop with TSP SSPCS2.

If you're a regular SP chopper, or if you're an inverted/LP chopper that has tried SPs, which rubbers have you tried and how did you find it?

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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2013, 21:35 
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A really good topic... I hope we have some SP choppers here that can help, as I don't think there are many of them. :(

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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 01:03 
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There are a few. I believe foam is still using SPs and Leatherback was the guy that originally converted me so hopefully he'll log on at some point and see this.

Have you ever tried SPs haggis or is the reversal of LPs to important to your game?

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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 02:13 
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dunc, the topic of SP chopping is a great one!

I started to see how effective and fun SP chopping was when I first used my Friendship 802-40, 4 years ago, as a hitting weapon, but realized that SP chopping was MORE ACCURATE than inverted chopping. As you know, chopping is not all about MAX spin, because MAX spin inverted chopping does not allow most guys who play 6 hours a week the kind of accuracy that pros have.

So. now using Friendship 799 ox on my BH, I'm able to chop sidespin loops that I could not get on the table with my prev rubber, Tackiness Chop.

Now, you know all what I'm about to say: The SP gives more accuracy in all chopping situations. In aggressive chops against moderate strength balls, I can consistently chop flatter and keep the ball DEEP on my opponents side. A "middle of the table chop" is too easy to attack.

So, this picture shows how I think when I'm chopping against sidespin loop. And it actually works with SP because of the lower sensitivity to incoming spin!

The black line is the incoming side spin loop.
The green line is where I aim my chop, I play these shots by quickly shifting my body to play a BH, (I need a BH for this shot!) I don't apply sidespin, just chop with a fairly closed face and aim where the green square is.
And the resulting shot goes where the red line is. I have practiced this with my sidespin looping friend quite a bit.


Attachments:
SP-chopping-vs-sidespin-loop.jpg
SP-chopping-vs-sidespin-loop.jpg [ 94.86 KiB | Viewed 1655 times ]

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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 07:22 
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Great post Glenn. That's exactly what I had to do - it's a bizarre feeling to aim OFF the table!

The effect was much more noticeable when I went back to my LPs as I suddenly missed a lot of chops by trying to play for sidespin that my LPs just didn't need to worry about.

The other side of the coin is the sidespin chop. Against lower-spin balls you've got the option to really hack across the side of the ball and the amount of side that my SPs can put on the ball is unbelievable. The sidespin in its own right catches a certain calibre of player out but even the better players seemed to be unsure as to how much backspin was on those chops, leading to myriad mistakes.

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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 10:17 
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Thanks for the sidespin advice dunc.

I have only experimented with sidespin with my SP with serve return. I have been working on accuracy (deep to my opponents side, to corners and middle) 90% of the time, and you say that very good sidespin can be done, that sounds great. Coming from inverted, I had not put any time in yet for sidespin, because chop with sidespin for inverted requires a LOT of time.

I will try the sidespin chop against shots that don't "kill me"

:Chop:

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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 12:06 
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I'm used to playing against loopers both straight and sidespin with inverted so naturally compensate for it when playing my shots. So its not something I personally notice but I see when playing a deliberate side spin loop myself a lot of people have trouble hitting them far wide off the side of the table. Anyway I've found that because most loopers do hit with a degree of sidespin you can chop following the side spin and continue it on with short pips. You can get a lot of curve in you're chop, OK maybe not a meter or two like you can with a loop but you get enough to make returning it a little more difficult so I'd embrace the side spin and work with it rather that aiming somewhere else and losing that energy. You always try and do something with the spin on a sidespin serve with inverted by rebounding it back out on your over the table block aka doing a Waldner so why not use it everywhere :)?.

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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 12:53 
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foam said:
Quote:
I've found that because most loopers do hit with a degree of sidespin you can chop following the side spin and continue it on with short pips.


just to make sure I'm understanding what you are saying, the following illustration is a BH chop vs sidespin loop, should my blade be kinda like this illustration and therefore I'm chopping and flowing with the same sidespin direction as the incoming shot?


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SP-chopping-vs-sidespin-loop-2.jpg
SP-chopping-vs-sidespin-loop-2.jpg [ 69.25 KiB | Viewed 1611 times ]

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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 23:12 
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Yes that's right, it works out mint because you're following the natural spin and just keeping what was on the ball.

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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2014, 11:48 
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I know it’s an old topic but nevertheless a good one so I thought I will add few points based of my recent switch to modern defense with SP on BH.

I come from inverted on both sides and never had troubles controlling spin; it’s actually my strength.

IMHO, this is important because chopping with SP is very similar to chopping with Inverted except that it can bring more consistency.

If one has some troubles handling very spiny top and/or backspins, LP is the way to go.
SP chops are not forgiving at all.
SP require to be physically and technically capable in order to chop with them.

Regarding SP rubbers, I tried a few and in different sponge thicknesses:

. Friendship 802, 802-40
. Dr Neubauer Leopard
. Stiga Clippa
. Victas VO101, VO102
. Juic Patisuma 3
. TSP SuperSpin Pips Chop 2
. TSP Spectol, Spectol 21, Spectol Speed

Conclusions:
. Harder sponge is better for chopping (by far); deadish with more control
. Average grippy topsheet is enough to produce heavy backspin and helps for controlling spinny loops due to moderate insensitivity.
. 1.5mm to 1.8mm sponge works the best. Too thick and it’s almost like playing with inverted, too thin and it reduces the ability of producing heavy backspin chops.

My favorite is by far: TSP Spectol Speed in Black with 1.5 or 1.8mm depending on the blade. Red had harder topsheet and felt less grippy. The hard sponge greatly helps for chops due to direct feel on ball impact and provide good possibilities for attacking.

FH rubber:
Anything really... depending on your level and how you play with (some chops or all attack). From Tensor (Tenergy and others) to sticky hard sponge Chinese (boosted or not).

Blade:
I tried most of all the usual suspects (defensive) blades. Coming from offensive blades, I have always been surprised by the speed of some so called defensive blades.
Favorites:
Flexible: Donic DefPlay
Stiff: Bty Joo Se Hyuck

That’s about it.

Modern defense with SP is fun!
Good luck guys!

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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2014, 18:37 
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Interesting post Ludo, thank you.

I see myself as a "SP chopper". At the moment I'm using LPs as I've taken a big step up in the divisions and need the extra control whilst I learn the "real" game but last season and next season I played/will be playing SPs.

So far I've tried 802, Spectol, Pimplemini and SSPCS2. All of them in 1.4-1.7mm sponge, though I also tried Pimplemini and SSPCS2 in 1mm sponge and frankly they were useless.

I desperately wanted to play with SSPCS2 because it's an unbelievably spinny rubber. I can generate nearly as much spin with that rubber (on pushes, serves, loops and chops) as I can with some cheaper inverted rubbers. It's a monster.

However... it's also REALLY tough to chop with.

I started with 802 and ended up pretty happily with Spectol.

My findings with SPs are as follows...
  • Slow, spinny loops are far and away the hardest shot for me to chop and that upsets the consistency of my game fairly severely (maybe the answer is to hit those?)
  • Majority of SP chops are far heavier than any LP chop (even with 0.5mm P1-R) but if someone powerloops one of your chops, giving you little time to react/play the perfect technique, you end up floating the ball

I've got two questions for you Ludo. Firstly, why do you find the hard sponge to be the answer? Is Spectol Speed harder than Spectol? I know Hou Yingchao plays with a custom sponge under his Spectol topsheet.. do you think it's a harder or softer sponge?

Secondly, when you watch Hou his chops are like mine (although obviously much more fluid and beautiful) in the respect of swing-length. However, when you watch the old SP choppers like Ding Song, his technique is more like a "midair push" - it's a short, choppy stroke which always finishes under the ball. Which one do you use? What's the difference? Which one should we be aiming to use?!

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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2014, 18:49 
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Does anyone else find it to have a more successful chop at a 90 degree angle rather than 45?

I find sp harder to chop with, but more consistent than lp if that makes sense.

Used ox sp.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2014, 03:40 
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ludo wrote:
IMHO, this is important because chopping with SP is very similar to chopping with Inverted except that it can bring more consistency.


IMO this is the key takeaway point. You don't get any of the "free" reversal with SP/Inverted so every chop no matter how defensive is still like a topspin/attack of backspin but upside-down. This is not easy for typical club players to maintain.

SP/inverted supposedly wins with "spin variation", but it's easy to forget that's pretty advanced stuff beyond getting loopdrives back on the table.

TonyL wrote:
Does anyone else find it to have a more successful chop at a 90 degree angle rather than 45?


Not entirely unlike angle of attack for topspin, the "goal" is always more efficient fwd strokes. Just like attacking backspin, this is easier said than done. Dunc mentions Ding Song's short wristy fwd motion, but it's worth pointing out he's the only one who can get away it at that level as if there needs to be more reminder of just how talented he is.

IMO with primarily defensive techniques it's better to get feel of the stroke w/ safer shot first and graduate to more aggressive implementation as confidence builds.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2014, 04:48 
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dunc wrote:
I've got two questions for you Ludo. Firstly, why do you find the hard sponge to be the answer? Is Spectol Speed harder than Spectol? I know Hou Yingchao plays with a custom sponge under his Spectol topsheet.. do you think it's a harder or softer sponge?

Secondly, when you watch Hou his chops are like mine (although obviously much more fluid and beautiful) in the respect of swing-length. However, when you watch the old SP choppers like Ding Song, his technique is more like a "midair push" - it's a short, choppy stroke which always finishes under the ball. Which one do you use? What's the difference? Which one should we be aiming to use?!


I meant "hard" sponge as the opposite of "bouncy" like most of Tensor sponges.
If I recall, Spectol Speed sponge is around 45-47 deg. (vs 36 for Spectol Original). I tried both and there is absolutely no comparison.
Spectol Speed (vs the others I tested) provides more feel and control.
I agree with you regarding SSPCS2; the topsheet is very grippy (like 802-40) and the super soft sponge is really slow. I didn't have trouble chopping with it but I found to be limited in terms of producing dead balls.

Not sure what Hou Yinchao is using for sponge but from the sound of it, it seems to be a quite hard sponge.
I saw him play at Levallois, France many years ago and I could clearly hear the blade every time he was chopping so I am pretty sure he is using a pretty hard sponge.
When he does side spin chops, he is basically using his SP like an inverted rubber. That stroke helps him controlling super heavy topspins from opponents. Really cool to watch actually.

There a bunch of highly ranked (2700-2800) Chinese SP choppers playing in the US right now. I will post some links.

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Last edited by ludo on 29 Nov 2014, 05:49, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2014, 04:58 
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TonyL wrote:
Does anyone else find it to have a more successful chop at a 90 degree angle rather than 45?
I find sp harder to chop with, but more consistent than lp if that makes sense.
Used ox sp.


As I said, chopping with SP is very similar to chopping with inverted.
The faster the ball comes at you (speed and spin), the faster your chopping stroke needs to be and usually with an angle closer to 90 degree.
If it's a slow and spinny loop, it's a matter of touch and usually a longer stroke works better.
SP can also be used for side spin chops and chop block.

Chops at a nearly 90 deg. angle will obviously produce more dead balls vs backspin (for smaller angles).

I chose to chop with SP (vs LP) because I am able to control spin and want to be able to generate more spin variation.

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Last edited by ludo on 29 Nov 2014, 05:07, edited 1 time in total.

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