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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2013, 15:51 
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To those sp user who were once inverted rubber user in either bh or fh :
How would you compare your service return using sp compared to inverted rubber? I am planning to shift to SP ( 802-40 ). This is mainly to improve receiving service at my backhand.

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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2013, 16:20 
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Why don't you just work on your service return and improve it? Service return is just like any other skill in TT - it will improve with practice and attention to detail. Band-aid solutions catch up with you eventually. By all means use SP if it suits your game but don't use it to cut corners. :)


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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2013, 17:06 
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If you choose a spinny SP like 802-40, you'll probably struggle with serve receive if you already are with inverted.

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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2013, 17:11 
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I have been working on my service return CM that's why I have not converted to SP or LP on my BH for more than 2 years. One thing I love doing is chopping with my BH ( thus i prefer soft sponge rubbers ). I want to improve both my service return and chopping thus I'm thinking of trying SP. :)

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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2013, 17:56 
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I like your concept Red Lion. The 802-40 is a very versatile rubber!

IMO the 802-40 feels about 60% of the spin that a good inverted feels. It also imparts about 60% the spin that inverted does.

I find the 802-40 to be very versatile for serve return. This rubber has fantastic control for every shot, the only flaw is that you can't loop like inverted. So, it is great for pushing serve returns, and it is better for pushing accuracy than inverted. I have been able to push and avoid the center of the table because the 802-40 is less sensitive to spin. You can also side swipe serve returns that you can't do with inverted. And with practice, you can also avoid the centre of the table with this. You just have to adjust because it is more sensitive to spin than some other SP.

And you can banana flick against serves that have back and sidespin. I feel a lot of control with this type of shot.

When you are facing those super spinny pendulum serve returns the 802-40 will allow you to avoid weak returns better than inverted. We all see many times that pro players with inverted do pushes against high spin serves that are not well controlled, and the server then attacks easily. Every player does weak returns, but I think the 802-40 will reduce the % of weak returns simply because it is 40% less sensitive to spin.

And the 802-40 is amazing for chopping and hitting!

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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2013, 18:31 
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Red_lion wrote:
To those sp user who were once inverted rubber user in either bh or fh :
How would you compare your service return using sp compared to inverted rubber? I am planning to shift to SP ( 802-40 ). This is mainly to improve receiving service at my backhand.


My BH career has gone LP -> Inverted -> SP -> LP/Inverted (depends on how I feel)

My experience of moving to SP from inverted was that, as expected, unless the inverted is not at all spinny, the SP will be less responsive to spin delivered on serve. So, when I play against people who deliver a very spinny sidey serve, I need to compensate less. Depending on your choice of rubber, I'd expect you to experience something similar.

However, it might help for you to clarify the issues you're having with returning serve. You mention later that you've been working on this for 2 years. I'm not one to preach, as I've recently been electing to use LP on service return against very spinny servers because I'm getting fed up of being served out of the game, and I don't have the time or practice partner to work on constantly returning very spinny serves. I aim to fix that, but as a short-term improvement, switching to LP has helped. But I think we'd all agree that it's better to solve the problem at root cause.

Unless I seriously misunderstand the science of the game, there are only a few possibilities for how the ball will be spinning when it reaches the bat after a serve. I've found a useful trick for reading the serve and returning it is to hit the ball in the direction from which the bat is travelling. For example: Opponent does a spinny pendulum serve; he's right handed, the bat is arcing right to left from his perspective and left to right from mine. So from my perspective, his bat began its journey to *my left*. On contact with the ball, it begins to spin from left to right from his perspective, right to left from mine. If I do nothing, the ball with shoot off to left from his perspective, and to the right from mine. So, to compensate I need to aim to *my left* - that is from where the bat started. That way, allowing for the spin, the ball will go on the table. The rest is all in the detail - how much spin was really there, whether there was top or bottom spin involved, etc.

If this is egg-sucking, please forgive me, but I find that a useful mental shortcut. Hope it helps a bit.

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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2013, 18:44 
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Good in theory following the direct the bat is going, unfortunately its not always
the same direction the rubber is going.

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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2013, 18:57 
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foam wrote:
Good in theory following the direct the bat is going, unfortunately its not always
the same direction the rubber is going.


It's early, and coffee may not have set in yet. Did I a) explain it badly, mixing up my right and left? or b) have it wrong all this time, and my getting the ball on the table was completely by chance? Or is this a different way of saying the same thing?

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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2013, 06:28 
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LordCope, that is exactly how I explain coping with spin to absolute beginners. Aim for the direction that the bat started from. This holds for top spin - aim low, ie close your bat angle, and back spin - aim high, ie open your bat angle.

Unfortunately when I cope with spin I decide whether to hit with the spin, put more on, or against the spin, put my own on, and it is a lot less obvious that I am taking my own advice. :(

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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2013, 08:18 
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Red_lion wrote:
I am planning to shift to SP ( 802-40 ). This is mainly to improve receiving service at my backhand.

What is it about service return that gives you trouble? If it is coping with pure spin then you need to learn to handle this with any rubber - its just a matter of touch and bat angle. If it is a problem picking deceptive serves then 802-40 probably won't help that much - if you misread a serve you are in trouble no matter what.


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2013, 09:04 
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CM, I want to return long service shorter and avoid 3rd ball attack from my opponent. Likewise, if I am to measure my success rate in returning service with a new opponent, it is around 50%. I can read the spin but could not get the bat angle good enough.
I have been reading lord cope post on service return, and basically I have the same concept if I understood his post right :D . I follow the straight path rule, meaning I adjust my receiving in a straight path and either push straight or chop straight when receiving serve. No side spin for me as I adjust my body to the ball.

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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2013, 10:54 
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Hi Red Lion!

About avoiding 3rd ball attack, (assuming that we are not at the top levels of our sport, but a level where the play is still ok or quite good) it needs to be said that SP can do something better on serve return than Inverted: I find that SP allows me to make more accurate and aggressive pushes against backspin/sidespin serves. Some say: but 802-40 is vulnerable to spin! but I say, the fact that it is 40% less vulnerable to spin means that my push returns can be 40% more accurate and I can hit pushes harder than inverted. (most of the time....this is a % game!)

So, I'm able to push faster and more accurate returns and hit the deep table to my opponents BH or body better with 802-40 than I was previously able to with inverted. And I am , more often, (most of the time....this is a % game!) able to hit faster pushes to zones that are not good looping zones for my opponent.

I personally find that hitting short serve returns against deep spinny serves is not regularly possible. But I enjoy the 802-40 for more aggressive and accurate deep pushing. If a players hits really deep serves, the 802-40 is MUCH better for chopping serve returns aimed at weak looping points than some kind of tensor inverted.

TRUE statement: 802-40 is only half as good at looping as inverted. Therefore, this must be also true: 802-40 is better at handling spin than inverted. And if you can regularly handle spin better, you can be creative in areas that spin sensitive rubber CAN NOT GO! I never see pro players make really good pushes against really good serves, (that's why rallies are so short!) but I have seen much stronger pushes from old videos of Johnny Huang with his SP.

If this is true: High power inverted is better (than SP) for long range looping. Then this must also be true: High power inverted is weaker (than SP) at pushing accuracy.

So it is not really valid to ask: "why don't you just become a pro at inverted serve return?"

Because, the SP player wants something that high powered inverted is not excellent at: pushing accuracy.

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Last edited by glennholder on 05 Nov 2013, 11:14, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2013, 10:58 
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And Red Lion......it looks like yu are going to beat me to the "1000" club! + 1000 OOAK NUT. ;(

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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2013, 13:02 
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Red_lion wrote:
CM, I want to return long service shorter and avoid 3rd ball attack from my opponent. Likewise, if I am to measure my success rate in returning service with a new opponent, it is around 50%. I can read the spin but could not get the bat angle good enough.
I have been reading lord cope post on service return, and basically I have the same concept if I understood his post right :D . I follow the straight path rule, meaning I adjust my receiving in a straight path and either push straight or chop straight when receiving serve. No side spin for me as I adjust my body to the ball.

It's EXTREMELY difficult to return long serves short enough so that they cant be attacked, no matter what rubber you use. Long serves should either be attacked or, if you are a chopper, chopped deep.

It sounds like you still need work on handling spin serves in general. Do you know any good servers that will spend time serving to you. At the end of the day there are only a few different types of spin - side-chop, side-top, top, chop, no-spin - once you know how to handle these (which you need to do and which isnt that tuff! :) ) then the only issue should be reading the serves.

802-40 will make it a little easier to flick short balls and perhaps a touch easier to chop with (although its fairly quick).


Last edited by carbonman on 05 Nov 2013, 15:15, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2013, 14:49 
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glennholder wrote:
And Red Lion......it looks like yu are going to beat me to the "1000" club! + 1000 OOAK NUT. ;(


:o I am not aware of the 1000 OOAK nut, anyway I'm enjoying myself posting and reading and most important of all, learning.

Back to CM.. I have a lot of things more to learn. The more I have access to difficult opponent, I find my skills and experience lacking. I am attempting to break a barrier and be considered elite, feared or any appropriate adjective. I'm enjoying playing but deep inside, I want to improve further.
I am an inverted chopper. I chop deep, thus my opponent can't attack my chop easily. I want to enhance this chopping further by using SP but I don't want to break away from my BH push totally.

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