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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2014, 00:31 
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Yesterday I played with inverted forehand and SP backhand all night, which I've never done before. Regarding the SP backhand, blocking against topspin was easy, pushing against underspin was no problem. But I thought we're supposed to be able to punch and hit against underspin too. I didn't have much luck executing these shots.

So I worked with my robot for a bit, but the only thing that seemed consistent was a slow LP-style lift, which I'm not sure is much use. I really need to work on my technique, obviously, but other than pushing against underspin, what should I be looking to do with SP?

Rubbers tested were Butterfly Raystorm (1.9), Friendship 802 (1.5), Friendship 799 (1.5) and Tibhar Speedy Soft (1.5).

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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2014, 11:54 
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I have been using SP on my FH and BH for about a year now. I tried a few different SPs at first - 802, Clippa, 802-40, and DHS 652
I felt that 802 and DHS 652 just didn't have enough spin, I was always drawn back to 802-40 with the soft sponge. It had enough spin to keep the ball on the table and allowed me to hit through spin when needed. (Clippa was somewhere in between for me)

On the forehand, whenever there is underspin, that is an invitation to attack. If there is significant underspin, I pretty much flat-hit the ball and the backspin turns into topspin to bring the ball down. If there is heavy topspin and the ball leaves the back of the table, you can pretty much loop (just a flatter version).

As far as the backhand is concerned, pretty much the same, if there is underspin and the ball comes up to net height or higher, I am topspin/flat hitting. The thing I like even better on the backhand is the ease of control where you can hit sharp angles to either corner with a flick of the wrist.

I say all this, but keep in mind that I am definitely a level lower than you as a player - so I do not to pretend to know more, I just switched from inverted recently.

I would just suggest that you try a spinnier SP like 802-40, it might have the behavior you are looking for.

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2014, 19:42 
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Looping underspin is difficult with SP, you have to have perfect bat angle. Hitting underspin above the net with the ball on the rise is much easier, but low underspin balls are in general SP's big weakness IMHO.

The ability to open with great speed/power is so crucial at higher levels, that I suspect this is one of the reasons SP aren't very common at the top end of this game. You need great reflexes (with almost no back swing) to deal with what comes back across the table, after you open with only a medium speed loop against low push.

Hitting is a lot of fun though!

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PostPosted: 12 May 2014, 18:35 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
Yesterday I played with inverted forehand and SP backhand all night, which I've never done before. Regarding the SP backhand, blocking against topspin was easy, pushing against underspin was no problem. But I thought we're supposed to be able to punch and hit against underspin too. I didn't have much luck executing these shots.

So I worked with my robot for a bit, but the only thing that seemed consistent was a slow LP-style lift, which I'm not sure is much use. I really need to work on my technique, obviously, but other than pushing against underspin, what should I be looking to do with SP?

Rubbers tested were Butterfly Raystorm (1.9), Friendship 802 (1.5), Friendship 799 (1.5) and Tibhar Speedy Soft (1.5).


It strongly depends on the SP you use. With grippy ones you can play something like topspin and also (with fast forearm and wrist) can attack backspin very good. With less grippy SP it is quite difficult to play something like topspin and hitting is more common.
When you attack with SP keep in mind that the ball should be above the height of the net to attack it well. If the ball is below the heigh of the net you have to generate an arc. With grippy SP something like topspin is ok, with less grippy SP you have to open the racket and make an upward-forward movement.
Unfortunately it is not really possible to play fast attack balls with SP against backspin that is below the net ...

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2014, 14:08 
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Fab wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
When you attack with SP keep in mind that the ball should be above the height of the net to attack it well. If the ball is below the heigh of the net you have to generate an arc. With grippy SP something like topspin is ok, with less grippy SP you have to open the racket and make an upward-forward movement.
Unfortunately it is not really possible to play fast attack balls with SP against backspin that is below the net ...


I'd like to know if a grippy LP is easier than a grippy SP to play a fast attack against a backspin that is below the net, on the BH and/or the FH?

Tks.


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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2014, 22:57 
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syncup00 wrote:
Fab wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
When you attack with SP keep in mind that the ball should be above the height of the net to attack it well. If the ball is below the heigh of the net you have to generate an arc. With grippy SP something like topspin is ok, with less grippy SP you have to open the racket and make an upward-forward movement.
Unfortunately it is not really possible to play fast attack balls with SP against backspin that is below the net ...


I'd like to know if a grippy LP is easier than a grippy SP to play a fast attack against a backspin that is below the net, on the BH and/or the FH?

Tks.



For ma attacking with long pips is almost always against push that is above net height.

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2014, 23:20 
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Attacking underspin is SP's strength. Dead balls are more difficult. What it takes is an open bat and a quick flick of the wrist to produce what seems to be a mild topspin, but will be quite heavy, the more so the more spin is given to you. I say this and I use Spectol -- not a spinny pip.

Placement is key. Generally the opponent will misread the spin, especially if you give it enough of a kick, that is, wrist action.

Again, open bat.

You don't "loop" with SPs.... ever. You drive and hit.

The other option with heavier underspin is taking the ball at the top of its bounce and hitting FORWARD through the spin. You will get only a small margin of error b/c there won't be much of an arc. But then again, you won't need much of an arc, b/c you're going for speed and the speed of your bat will "scrub off" much of the spin.

This takes a lot of practice. So it's not like one of those "I tried SPs for a couple hours but they didn't work for me" kind of thing. As always, if someone shows you the ropes, it's a lot easier!

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2014, 02:30 
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josesiem wrote:
Attacking underspin is SP's strength. Dead balls are more difficult. What it takes is an open bat and a quick flick of the wrist to produce what seems to be a mild topspin, but will be quite heavy, the more so the more spin is given to you. I say this and I use Spectol -- not a spinny pip.

Placement is key. Generally the opponent will misread the spin, especially if you give it enough of a kick, that is, wrist action.

Again, open bat.

You don't "loop" with SPs.... ever. You drive and hit.

The other option with heavier underspin is taking the ball at the top of its bounce and hitting FORWARD through the spin. You will get only a small margin of error b/c there won't be much of an arc. But then again, you won't need much of an arc, b/c you're going for speed and the speed of your bat will "scrub off" much of the spin.

This takes a lot of practice. So it's not like one of those "I tried SPs for a couple hours but they didn't work for me" kind of thing. As always, if someone shows you the ropes, it's a lot easier!


Thanks Josesiem. Is it correct the attacks of underspin balls with SP is easier with a "grippy" SP rather than a more "classic" SP?

What about long pips (on BH in my case)? If I understand correctly, LP's strengths are chopping and blocking, but can LP also be used to attack underspin and low balls (even serves?) at the table? Is LP inferior to SP in this type of play?

I'm trying this style because I think I have an above average "eye" and quick hands over the table, so hopefully I can make these low margin for error shots work. Whenever possible, I intend to get my head and eyeballs right down at net level as I'm making these shots. The goal is to set up for FH attack. It will be "kill or be killed" at the table I guess.


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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2014, 08:58 
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syncup00 wrote:
josesiem wrote:
Attacking underspin is SP's strength. Dead balls are more difficult. What it takes is an open bat and a quick flick of the wrist to produce what seems to be a mild topspin, but will be quite heavy, the more so the more spin is given to you. I say this and I use Spectol -- not a spinny pip.

Placement is key. Generally the opponent will misread the spin, especially if you give it enough of a kick, that is, wrist action.

Again, open bat.

You don't "loop" with SPs.... ever. You drive and hit.

The other option with heavier underspin is taking the ball at the top of its bounce and hitting FORWARD through the spin. You will get only a small margin of error b/c there won't be much of an arc. But then again, you won't need much of an arc, b/c you're going for speed and the speed of your bat will "scrub off" much of the spin.

This takes a lot of practice. So it's not like one of those "I tried SPs for a couple hours but they didn't work for me" kind of thing. As always, if someone shows you the ropes, it's a lot easier!


Thanks Josesiem. Is it correct the attacks of underspin balls with SP is easier with a "grippy" SP rather than a more "classic" SP?

What about long pips (on BH in my case)? If I understand correctly, LP's strengths are chopping and blocking, but can LP also be used to attack underspin and low balls (even serves?) at the table? Is LP inferior to SP in this type of play?

I'm trying this style because I think I have an above average "eye" and quick hands over the table, so hopefully I can make these low margin for error shots work. Whenever possible, I intend to get my head and eyeballs right down at net level as I'm making these shots. The goal is to set up for FH attack. It will be "kill or be killed" at the table I guess.


Grippy is not easier. It really has nothing to do with hard or easy, but rather the racket angle. Grippy SPs will be more like inverted, while less grippy SPs will require a more open racket face and a more forward stroke.

LPs attack underspin really well, but it takes a long time to get the hang of it. In my case, it took 5 years! I'd go with LPs if you enjoy blocking with them. But if you want to consistently hit back (attack) then SPs are the way to go.

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2014, 09:43 
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josesiem wrote:
syncup00 wrote:
josesiem wrote:
Attacking underspin is SP's strength. Dead balls are more difficult. What it takes is an open bat and a quick flick of the wrist to produce what seems to be a mild topspin, but will be quite heavy, the more so the more spin is given to you. I say this and I use Spectol -- not a spinny pip.

Placement is key. Generally the opponent will misread the spin, especially if you give it enough of a kick, that is, wrist action.

Again, open bat.

You don't "loop" with SPs.... ever. You drive and hit.

The other option with heavier underspin is taking the ball at the top of its bounce and hitting FORWARD through the spin. You will get only a small margin of error b/c there won't be much of an arc. But then again, you won't need much of an arc, b/c you're going for speed and the speed of your bat will "scrub off" much of the spin.

This takes a lot of practice. So it's not like one of those "I tried SPs for a couple hours but they didn't work for me" kind of thing. As always, if someone shows you the ropes, it's a lot easier!


Thanks Josesiem. Is it correct the attacks of underspin balls with SP is easier with a "grippy" SP rather than a more "classic" SP?

What about long pips (on BH in my case)? If I understand correctly, LP's strengths are chopping and blocking, but can LP also be used to attack underspin and low balls (even serves?) at the table? Is LP inferior to SP in this type of play?

I'm trying this style because I think I have an above average "eye" and quick hands over the table, so hopefully I can make these low margin for error shots work. Whenever possible, I intend to get my head and eyeballs right down at net level as I'm making these shots. The goal is to set up for FH attack. It will be "kill or be killed" at the table I guess.


Grippy is not easier. It really has nothing to do with hard or easy, but rather the racket angle. Grippy SPs will be more like inverted, while less grippy SPs will require a more open racket face and a more forward stroke.

LPs attack underspin really well, but it takes a long time to get the hang of it. In my case, it took 5 years! I'd go with LPs if you enjoy blocking with them. But if you want to consistently hit back (attack) then SPs are the way to go.


Here's yet another follow-up question for anyone- do SPs (either spinny or classic) offer any advantages over inverted in attacking underspin serves and pushes, and other low balls that are on the table?


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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2014, 12:12 
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josesiem wrote:
Attacking underspin is SP's strength. Dead balls are more difficult. What it takes is an open bat and a quick flick of the wrist to produce what seems to be a mild topspin, but will be quite heavy, the more so the more spin is given to you. I say this and I use Spectol -- not a spinny pip.


Yup, makes sense - the less spinny the rubber, the more spin is preserved from the incoming shot. You'd be able to do the same with long pips (especially the banned, frictionless sort) but there are tradeoffs there.

Quote:
You don't "loop" with SPs.... ever. You drive and hit.


Yup! But these days many people call any sort of a topspin drive a "loop"! :lol:

Quote:
The other option with heavier underspin is taking the ball at the top of its bounce and hitting FORWARD through the spin. You will get only a small margin of error b/c there won't be much of an arc. But then again, you won't need much of an arc, b/c you're going for speed and the speed of your bat will "scrub off" much of the spin.

This takes a lot of practice. So it's not like one of those "I tried SPs for a couple hours but they didn't work for me" kind of thing. As always, if someone shows you the ropes, it's a lot easier!


It's instructive to watch Fukuhara Ai's backhand - she does this a lot. Takes everything over the table at the top of the bounce. It looks very different compared to how most people play. The reason I think it's difficult is most people start out playing with inverted and have to adjust to the pips - it would have been different in the early-mid 1960s when a lot of people played with pips-out sandwich.

syncup00 wrote:
Here's yet another follow-up question for anyone- do SPs (either spinny or classic) offer any advantages over inverted in attacking underspin serves and pushes, and other low balls that are on the table?


I think the main advantage is that it reacts a lot less to the backspin, so you don't have to compensate as much by stroking upwards with an open racket face. The margin of error would be greater with the pips-out. I've been practicing my attacks against short pushes and backspin serves (with inverted) and I'm missing a lot less of them than I used to, but it would be easier with pips-out.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2015, 06:06 
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Very interesting topic for me as a short pips player on my backhand. I play with Friendship 802-40 1.5mm thickness.
So, if I remember correctly, flat hitting the underspin ball at the top of the bounce or above net height? The bat should be open in comparison to the movement with an inverted rubber?

Other question, do you know some videos that show these techniques?
I'm playing with short pips for about 5 months and I'm practicing on my own as my coach doesn't help that much...

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2015, 08:28 
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One of the best with pips and the strokes he uses against chops. I'd say just look at the preparation, body and arm position and the racket angles of the strokes and don't get too hung up on semantics of what people might call the strokes.

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2015, 19:38 
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Thanks for the video!
As I play short pips on my backhand, do you also have a video about someone who plays short pips on the backhand?

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2015, 23:05 
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Rhydian wrote:
Thanks for the video!
As I play short pips on my backhand, do you also have a video about someone who plays short pips on the backhand?

Look how SP modern defender Polina Mikhailova handles SP classic defende Han Ying in this match, sooo many great examples of BH attacks with SP against back spin:

http://www.laola1.tv/de-at/video/ws-yin ... 06459.html

Also look at other matches with Polina at her thread in the video section, she is a great attacker when in the right mood: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=18665&p=302554#p302554

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